Do you REALLY need tactics?

[dkbonnes]

Tacktics are very importand, I think each team has its own basic tacktick (b.v. W-elves play a ball handeling game''get it, run, give it to your team mate, run, throw, catch and run again'') but whit a bit of luck and some solid skilling you can create a nice blocking line whitch you'll need in some league's and you will not jouse in other leageu's. So yeah I think each team need tacktics to keep winning some just more than others.

The two teams that need tacktics the most are orcs and dark elves imo, orcs start strong but if your leageu reaches a sertain point they need a good tacktician to keep winning, and d-elves start out as a allround team and need different tacktics from the start, they can't win a brawlling game against a blocking team like dwarves and can't win a running game against skaven.

[matkov]

I don't care about the win as much as most do. Most of all, I want the matches to be fun. If there is something I really hate, is a slow player who plays Blood Bowl as a strategy game. It usually ends up to be boring.

I play 4 minute time limit and slow coach just move less of his players.

[aanemesis]

...I want the matches to be fun. If there is something I really hate, is a slow player who plays Blood Bowl as a strategy game. It usually ends up to be boring...

Ah, now I know where you're coming from. Tactics is good, within the 4 minutes time limit. Otherwise a BB game drags more than 2 hours.

[aanemesis]

Bad dice screw good tactics but good dice usually don't save bad tactics.

Nice! Can I quote you?

[Khaine]

Why are 1 & 3 the same - looks to me like its a clear yes if you join these?

1 is more of a tactics will overcome occasional bad rolls as I read it.
3 is more of a yes tactics are important but eventually the dice are going to screw you no matter how good your tactics are.

[Khaine]

...I want the matches to be fun. If there is something I really hate, is a slow player who plays Blood Bowl as a strategy game. It usually ends up to be boring...

Ah, now I know where you're coming from. Tactics is good, within the 4 minutes time limit. Otherwise a BB game drags more than 2 hours.

Chuckle I always felt watching the clock took away from the fun of the game . Then again we talk and schedule our games for 3 and a half hour time frames on a sunday afternoon when everyone has quite a bit of time to spend playing the games. In our league BB is as much a gamers social club as it is a fun league to play in. So far I'm undefeated, and I'm quite sure my turns barring bad rolls or a quick turnover take 4-6 minutes depending on how much debate there is about a block setup. Some of the players haven't played since the second edition box set rules so a couple things have changed. We also will occasionally need a rule lookup or an independent observer <coach on an off week who shows to chat> to make a call on something just so nobody has hard feelings. Even when we have bad dice weeks peoples tactics usually will overcome the dice rolls. I am currently the only undefeated player in the league, playing pro elves, and have had phenominal dice rolls so far this season. In 4 games I have built the team up alot so I would say that setting up your blocks correctly, having a definite scoring strategy against each team, and sticking to your strategy until someone proves it to be invalid is the key to success. I mean in the nfl if a team can't stop the run you drive the ball down their throat with a run each down until they stop it and then switch up. I see Blood Bowl the same way. The game is incredibly fun when your tactics work well and even with the occasional bad dice roll, if you already have the blocks setup, then your either making someone throw blocks that are favoable to you or you are making them commit extra players that normally they would not have commited. Either way your gaining an advantage by forcing your opponent to do something he may not want to do. The other half of this coin is you also need to figure out your opponents tactics asap or you will end up with nothing to show for your brilliant coaching but a big L in the W/L/D line. If you see a player blow out the side lines every time trying to sprint for a td every turn, you change your defensive setup, using more TZ and allowing them through easier, but making sure you put tackle in the back field. If you see a cage every game, then you know you can stack the line and slwo the cage to a crawl and then break it when the time is correct and you have your <insert cage breaker here> in possition with the support he needs to snap the cage like a twig. If you see alot of TTM you would setup with many in the backfield to leave it full of TZ and chances for goblins/flings/snotlings to smash into other players and go splat.

Proper tactics will go a long way to correcting the occasional or even frequent bad dice rolls. Luckily Blood Bowl isn't quite as demanding as a game like chess where one false move WILL cost you the game but if you just go out there trying to really stictly on luck, you will NOT be successful in the long run. UNless of course nuffle has blessed your dice <With a bit of lead> and your rolling 6's and skulls every turn .

[JJB]

If tactics didn't matter then the rookie plaers would win as much as the veterns.

Isn't the case?

[Khaine]

If tactics didn't matter then the rookie plaers would win as much as the veterns.

Isn't the case?

He should have a put an "Untrained rookie". I taught our skaven player the strategy I was using for other agillity teams and now he's beating teams left and right and I'm the only one who beat him because I didn't give him all of my secrets . I don't believe that a good veteran coach will lose to a newer player as long as he employs sound tactics and doesn't get totally crap dice rolls. If that happens well the tactics can still help secure a smaller margin of victory for the veteran.

[D'Arquebus]

Tactics are king in Blood Bowl. I agree with Khaine above.

As an example, one of my coaches was always complaining about his "bad luck" when it came to hitting things. As an Orc coach, he was always disappointed he wasn't blasting the other team into oblivion each and every turn. And as a result had decided that he couldn't win because he couldn't hit properly and that was what his team was suppossed to be good at. Now aside from the fact that he hadn't at that stage developed any Skills to facilitate putting the hurt on other teams (such as Mighty Blow) all he really had was a slight ST stat advantage (Black Orcs) and a belief he should be rolling better. I pointed out the 'tactic' of always playing for Push Backs. That is, excepting the few hits made each game on the Opposing Ball Carrier, make every hit with the expectation that you will (barring falling down yourself, which one would presumably reroll) end up with only getting a pushback against the opponent. This will force you to focus on how to remove players from the play without necessarily killing them. Eg making sure that when you DO push them back, it is from an angle that will remove their tackle zone from your own Ball Carrier. Thereafter, both he and I noticed a a distinct improvement in his game play with no recogniseable increase in the 'quality' of his dice rolls.


Along the lines of what gken1 pointed out, if your doing the wrong thing then being lucky will not necesarily save you. Whereas, if you're doing the right thing (including) making suitable preparations for potential failure, then even bad luck will not give the opponent a walk away victory as s/he will still have their work cut out to capitalise on any dice related mistakes.

As a final example, I put forth an overtime drive (humans vs skaven) humans receiving against a depleted (approx 7 rats left) skaven team. It looked promising for the humans, but after failing a 2+ rerollable pick up (AG 4 on FAAAARRRR too many of those dang humans ) the skaven player drove a gutter runner deep and scooped up the ball in the thrower's Tackle Zone. As the human coach had failed to push some receivers through early this was a "safe" option for the skaven as tactically he couldn't be scored on immediately if his risky play failed. The human then blitzed the skaven, but as the Runner had Blodge (rolled push back and defender stumbles) and the human had not put his Tackler back into the mix he stayed up and then scooched in for an easy 2+ dodge and score the next turn. The human coach blamed his luck for this loss. But even in my little summary of the action one can see several tactical errors made in these last turns by the human coach which if corrected would have likely lead to his expected victory regardless of a couple of poor dice rolls.

Putting yourself in an advantageous position allows for some riskier plays without fear of dreadful consequenses should the dice go against you. Conversley, allowing yourself to be put into a make or break position will only compound any bad luck that's coming your way.

[D'Arquebus]

Another thought has arrived just as I hit submit. At certain times a team and coach are less able to deal with a bit of bad luck and can suffer for it. Particularily at the beginning of a new team. However, playing tactically well can at the least help to alleviate the problems caused and to make a come back, if not in the match in question.

An example of my own team, I had Chaos vs Undead. Both teams were brand new, and on the first drive (his) I suffered a pitch invasion and had a Chaos Warrior and Beastman Seriously Injured and my Ogre Stunned. At the end of that disasterous drive several more players were KOd and 1 more Badly Hurt (due largely to the lack of numbers and being overpowered). The end of the second half saw more various KOs and one Beastman die. This was all on a team with only 11 or 12 starting players. The next game I went in with a starting 9 against Skaven and got beaten up. Again due largely to the coach knowing what he was doing and useing his numbers advantage which quickly grew as a result. Now had he not been so canny tactically, then possibly my lack of numbers wouldn't have mattered as much and neither the 'bad luck' which caused it.

Now I had lost two games, the odds of which were greatly stacked against me as a result of a dice roll before I or my first opponent had actually moved a player. However, by simply accepting the likelihood of the two loses and playing to preserve what remained of my team and scrounge what SPPs I could from each match I had a skill and a full 11 players for my third match which I managed to win. It was mostly uphill from there with no other 'bad luck' event having such a debilitating affect upon my team.

By accepting the limitations forced upon me by the dice rolls (but I might add, also by my choices in inital lineup, a more Beastman oriented starting team might have coped with the loses better!) I played to wrestle what advantage I could without stretching my (conceivably limited) luck or making demands of my players which would have required incredibly good luck to succeed. If one allows oneself to become increasingly desperate when one starts to suffer some loses or points against then the apparent bad luck can seem to compound itself because riskier actions are taken and potential loses are greater.

[Gumbo]

I think blind ignorance or devil-may-care attitudes coupled with luck can win over tactics, but obviously only in the short term.