LRB 5.0 Wood Elf Starting Squad/Tactics discussion

[fen]

under LRB 5.0 is it possible to have a catcher prone and throw an accurate pass to them for them to "jump up and perform a diving catch" to snag the ball on a 3+.

Here's the relevant text.

Jump Up (Agility)
...If the player declares any Action other than a Block Action he may stand up for free without paying the three squares of movement...

Diving Catch (Agility)
The player is superb at diving to catch balls others cannot reach. The
player can attempt to catch any pass, kick off or crowd throw-in, but not
bouncing ball, that would land in an empty square in one of his tackle
zones as if it had landed in his own square without leaving his current
square. If there are two or more players attempting to use this skill then
they get in each other’s way and neither can use it.

Unless otherwise stated in the skill description, the following
rules apply to all skills:
...6. Only Extraordinary skills work when a player is Prone or Stunned.

The awnser is no. Because you can only use Jump Up when the player starts their own action and Diving Catch does not work when you're prone.

[voyagers_uk]

another beard bites the dust

thanks Fen

[Warhammer]

After listening closely and -shock- do some thinking of my own, I think, I have come to (my very personal) conclusion.

Let us revisit:

We have more or less four options now:
a) keep the roster from LRB 4: 1 WD, 8 Line, 2 RR, 8FF
b) switch FF to upgrade a line to WD
c) switch FF to upgrade line to tree
d) switch FF for a RR

Following wesleys argumentation, I believe that a second wardancer is not the best option. Hogs SPPs and is not really needed to win early games. Also, staying with option a) is not, what I'd do. Maybe the extra cash is wirth it, maybe not. However, I feel the need to start the team differently.

So, that leaves two more option, tree or reroll. And between the two, I would go for the reroll, now. I feel, I have more difficulties by getting turned over for lack off RR than getting bashed to oblivion. So, that is my reasoning.

Fire away!

BTW: Andreas, if you read this: Yerah, that's my setup for next league.

That is the real decision, which do you value more, the tree or the RR.

If I had the re-rolls I would use them, but I don't need the re-rolls early on, I'd rather have the extra durable player.

[Mad Jackal]

Some very good points made here.

I have an opinion I'll share after work.

[Mad Jackal]

I don't consider FF an important buy because while it may give +1 to winnings or rarely +2 due to the fame, Winning gives +1 always AND allows you to re-roll your winnings roll. And so mcuh depends on your opponent's FF and the 2d6 you both roll.

Also, I do consider re-rolls cost double after initial buy, BUT (50k x 2 = 100k) while WarDancers and Trees are 120k each. The apoth of course adn players always stay the same price.

My start (once trees were allowed on the roster) is thus.

2 WarDancers 240k
1 Tree 120k
8 Line Elves 560k
1 re-roll 50 k
0 FF
and saving 30k.

Saving 30k assures you the apoth if you win and zero FF ensures you gain a FF when you win. You also have to roll a one if you lose to not be able to afford the apoth after match one as well. Another decent start would be to upgrade a lineelf for 20k to a thrower who would be able to take leader quickly. (Not my 1st choice of starts, but one for the re-roll hounds.)

The tree is there to soak damage and draw attention. Especially if you score a lot you will kick a lot. Both WarDancers are there to provide you with dominance if in a new league or competance if in an established league. Right off the shelf, two wardancers can take on nearly anything. Thier dodge allows you to get away from damage or to a target. And their move boost over a line elf acts like sure feet re-roll (only way better).

The 1st priorities (after buying the apoth) of my teams are Strip Ball WarDancers and a Kick Line Elf. So in fact I do not mind if the WarDancer take spp in the first match or two to get to 6 spp. Once they strip ball they can be regulated back to only blitzing the ball free.

I buy the WarDancers and Trees before the 2nd or 3rd re-roll at the start for simple economics. I'd rather pay 100k for a re-roll a few games in than have to wait another (maybe) to get that other positional. Especially multiple positionals. Getting to 120k is not as easy as it used to be. And definately not as easy as 100k.

Winning drives your low FF up nearly automatically. And the occasional loss will not (the majority of the time) drop it.

Starting with FF 8 means when you win, odds are it will not increase, but the 1st loss will drop it to 7. So any purchased FF granted Fame seems to me to be slowly transfered as a +1 to winnings and a - to FF, net gain zero. I'd rather spend the 10k on an assistant or cheerleader to take advantage of the multiple times I'm going off the kick off chart. +1 from fame is very easily cancelled by 1 cheerleader or 1 assistant coach (on those results).

After the apoth and a re-roll or two are purchased I'll start buying catchers.
Sometimes it is to replace a deal line elf, but hopefully due to the tree and decent play you'll be adding players to your roster until you get to about 14 players.

-sorry it wasn't well laid out, it is late and I'm very tired. we can talk specific points if you like.

[Warhammer]

Here are my results so far using the following roster:

1 WD
1 Treeman
9 Lineelves
2 RR
30k treasury
5FF from optional rule (however the FF does count for TR and can increase/decrease)

First game, I played a heavily leveled Dark Elf team and tied 2-2. We should have won 3-2, but he got very lucky at the end of the first half and made three dodges and two GFIs with no re-rolls and got a pow to know down my WD that was all alone with the ball (long story) to keep me from going up 2-0 and receiving the ball next half.

Second game, we played a Skaven team with 2 games under their belt and short their RO. We won the game 2-1 in a surprisingly defensive affair. I was rolling terribly this game and the lack of RRs hurt quite a bit. However, the Treeman was instrumental in keeping us in the game taking up space and getting a CAS. We were down two players for almost the entire game, and the WD was fouled (BH) out of the game after turn 2. A line elf was killed by a foul this game.

Third game, we played Chaos Dwarves with 1 game under their belt. Before the game, we had enough cash to buy another WD so we did so. It was a good thing too, this was a very tough game that we won 2-0. Our first WD was fouled on turn two and was out with a BH. We lost another line elf to a SI due to a foul. Still we managed to keep the Dwarves on their half of the pitch until we were up 2-0. Still we had several bouts of bad luck which kept us from scoring more than we did.

My thoughts so far about the roster:

The Treeman is almost essential now. I've played woodies since 3rd edition came out, and I have never thought a Tree to be as critical as it is now (although early in 3rd ed., I was not the player I am now). The tree also allows a more diverse set of line elves. Since only two need to be on the LOS, you only need two blodgers to flank the Tree. Also, the Tree has garnered plenty of attention from opposing teams. He has been the most fouled played, but has yet to be injured. Also, teams have either focused on taking him down, or completely run the other direction, which has been very beneficial either way.

The apothecary is not as essential as he used to be. You're not getting the injured player back on the pitch, so he is only really useful for a SI of 5 (bad stat roll) or death.

Fouls are not frowned upon as much now. It is probably best to go for a DP/SG so you can keep up with the other teams fouls. Much of this change in attitude is due to the inducements, plus the lower chance of being sent off due to no IGMEOY rule. In any case, most of my CAS against have been due to fouling.

Blodgers are not as important to the WE team with the Tree as I previously mentioned. I still plan on getting block OR dodge as a first skill for almost every one, but only two guys are going to be blodgers to start. I will probably make some block/tackle, fend/dodge guys as well. I need to think of some better skill combos.

Skills so far, strip ball on one WD, one block line elf, and two dodge line elves. Due to the nature of my games so far, I have not had many SPPs. One lineelf has 2 MVPs, another has one, but all have at least one COMP. The one that died had scored one of my TDs.

If I had to do it over again, I would use the same lineup. The second WD is just another fouling target. I'd rather the tree be that target. Also, the Tree has taken root quite a bit, but he has still been very effective for downed elves to retreat back to to regroup.

[Jeremiah Kool]

The Treeman is almost essential now. I've played woodies since 3rd edition came out, and I have never thought a Tree to be as critical as it is now (although early in 3rd ed., I was not the player I am now). The tree also allows a more diverse set of line elves. Since only two need to be on the LOS, you only need two blodgers to flank the Tree. Also, the Tree has garnered plenty of attention from opposing teams. He has been the most fouled played, but has yet to be injured. Also, teams have either focused on taking him down, or completely run the other direction, which has been very beneficial either way.

I wonder why people try to take out a Treeman. I´d target other players instead of a very slow Big Guy with AV 10 / Thick Skull that has Loner and Take Root and no Block. I just don´t understand players who do this.

[fen]

I wonder why people try to take out a Treeman. I´d target other players instead of a very slow Big Guy with AV 10 / Thick Skull that has Loner and Take Root and no Block. I just don´t understand players who do this.

I agree and I thought about this one quite a bit. It comes down to the imposing size of the treeman, plus the fact that it's a tree. Some people just feel they have to take down such a big challenge.

There's a lot of people who feel a need to but their head against the dam instead of flowing around it. It's human nature.

[Warhammer]

I'm not going to complain about them going after the tree, it leaves the elves standing.

Its been interesting though. The Chaos Dwarf player basically avoided the tree, and didn't line up anyone near the tree when on offense. This backfired though when a blitz was rolled and allowed me to basically set up on his half of the pitch.

The Skaven and Dark Elf player took him head on. The Skaven player allocated several players to him (which I understood since he had a 2 man advantage), but the Dark Elf player didn't need to do that which I find puzzling. Go around him, and he can't do much.

Heck, last year, my tree didn't do much except stand around. I'm surprised that the people I am playing this year have changed tactics that much since they both played me with the tree and didn't play that way last year.

[TuernRedvenom]

Heck, last year, my tree didn't do much except stand around. I'm surprised that the people I am playing this year have changed tactics that much since they both played me with the tree and didn't play that way last year.

Are you playing in a retirement home? Maybe dementia is setting in?

Anyway I think trying to take a treeman down is a pretty good sign of n00b-ism.

[Buggrit]

question on skill combo usage which affects Wood Elves (and others)

Diving Catch and Jump Up

under LRB 5.0 is it possible to have a catcher prone and throw an accurate pass to them for them to "jump up and perform a diving catch" to snag the ball on a 3+.

I am sure it is a bit off, but thought I'd ask

sort of like the old "Jump Up/Pass Block" quandary until that got ruled out

Definitely off, you're taking an action with the throwing player which would need to be completed before the catching player could take an action. If he's prone on the floor he can't catch the ball.
You could Jump up the catcher and then throw the ball but then the catcher can't move after the throw.

[Warhammer]

Heck, last year, my tree didn't do much except stand around. I'm surprised that the people I am playing this year have changed tactics that much since they both played me with the tree and didn't play that way last year.

Are you playing in a retirement home? Maybe dementia is setting in?

Anyway I think trying to take a treeman down is a pretty good sign of n00b-ism.

Well, the dark elf player has been playing BB since vanilla 3rd ed., and the skaven player won our league last year with Dwarves and has been playing at least 10 years. Oddly enough the one player that did not go after the tree is the guy that only has one season under his belt.

I know its completely backwards.

[Mad Jackal]

Here are my results so far using the following roster:
1 WD
1 Treeman
9 Lineelves
2 RR
30k treasury
5FF from optional rule (however the FF does count for TR and can increase/decrease)

I like your style. Of course as I said above I'd prefer to pay 100k for re-roll number 2 than try to save up to get WarDancer 2 at 120k. It's just personal preference though.

[atropabelladonna]

I wonder why people try to take out a Treeman. I´d target other players instead of a very slow Big Guy with AV 10 / Thick Skull that has Loner and Take Root and no Block. I just don´t understand players who do this.

I agree and I thought about this one quite a bit. It comes down to the imposing size of the treeman, plus the fact that it's a tree. Some people just feel they have to take down such a big challenge.

There's a lot of people who feel a need to but their head against the dam instead of flowing around it. It's human nature.

Sadly, I am one of those players. I get my rocks off shouting Timber!!!!

It is sad to say that I have yet to kill a tree. And I have lost games trying to take one out.

And I would do it all again.

Timber!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[IronAge_Man]

After listening closely and -shock- do some thinking of my own, I think, I have come to (my very personal) conclusion.

Let us revisit:

We have more or less four options now:
a) keep the roster from LRB 4: 1 WD, 8 Line, 2 RR, 8FF
b) switch FF to upgrade a line to WD
c) switch FF to upgrade line to tree
d) switch FF for a RR

There is one more option - no WD, and at least two catchers to start. For LRB 5, I'd aim for 3 RRs also, at the expense of FF.

There are a few caveats to this style of team:
1) The catchers are employed as more defensive, harrassing players, providing nuisance and assists all over the field (one advantage is they are a safe target for linos to toss passes at for SPP accumulation). With Dodge and Catch, rerolls don't get burned quite so fast. The scoring is mostly done by the linos, with the catchers acting as messengers, providing the ball without the need for anything more that short-range passing. In short, catchers are a good deal at 90k.
2) In LRB 5 money doesn't roll in so fast, so you may have to wait a while for WDs. Remember that Dauntless is now a skill, so the catchers may begin to do some of that work...