And the first skill is ...

Aliboon · Post by **Aliboon** » Wed Jun 06, 2007 4:03 pm

But I think you are forgetting one thing â€“ you keep saying catch isnâ€™t needed in a running game. I think thatâ€™s incorrect â€“ remember Catch works when taking a hand off as well as a throw and in a running game that can be vital.

True enough, but personally I try and keep the dice rolling to a minimum, so try not to hand off. I will conceed that catch would be useful in some circumstances, but personally would find a Sneaky Git, Dirty Player catcher more useful than a catcher who would sometimes need to get a hand off for a score.

Problem with fouling without Sneaky Git, is that you can get sent off for no return (i.e. not breaking armour) you'll at least get a stun with a Sneaky Git. So if you foul with a lino, you'll be more likely to have players sent of and therefore be at a (wo)man disadvantage-not good when you're trying to bash a hole through to score.

Grogmir · Post by **Grogmir** » Wed Jun 06, 2007 4:29 pm

All good points - certainly agree that fouling without SG is a dangerous buisness. (I generally play Dark Elves so fouling without SG is never worth it)

The cathchers easy access to AG does make them tempting foulers - and its hard to give up guard on a linesmens double roll.

But you'll regreat getting that Catcher Dodge & SideStep in the end IMO.

Still everyteam needs a Sneaky Git and I'm no expert.

Grogmir

mattgslater · Post by **mattgslater** » Wed Jun 06, 2007 8:39 pm

I think that one of the best skills you can give one linewoman early-on is Kick. If your opponent doesn't get the ball into protection very quickly, you can use your Dodgy-Blocky guys very well. I hate Wrestle, so I'm not going to comment on it. It's effective on a onesy-twosy basis, but I'd go for Block on the rest. On doubles, Guard. Late-season, when you're taking multiple rolls on those players, you might look at Fend. Block-Tackle is great for one or two players.

I agree on the Guard thing for Blitzers, mostly. If you get doubles on a lino, give her Guard, so you can get a different S skill for a Blitzer.
â€¢ Block-Dodge-Stand Firm is great; on doubles, you can get her Jump Up and get ready to giggle. On a normal roll, it's Guard next.
â€¢ Block-Dodge-M.Blow gets SPP very fast, and with Tackle, she can be a monster of a safety).
â€¢ If you expect to tangle early on with teams that rely on a few vulnerable Dodge players (Undead, Skaven, Wood Elves... especially Undead), then Block/Tackle is essential, and Tackle isn't a bad early choice if you expect to face those teams frequently (building Block/Tackle linemen is better if you have time).
â€¢ On doubles, I like Side Step. It's a worthy alternative to Stand Firm. Nerves of Steel is another good choice.

I agree with some that you shouldn't foul with positionals. Your Catcher, however, is a lino by another name. You pay 20k more for Catch and A access. You don't have a Thrower, so Catch is pretty marginal in value all on its lonesome. If you don't get a Thrower, all you get is A access, and you already have Dodge. You're paying 20k for A access, for a Ghoul with -1MA. If you really care about an A skill (Sneaky Git), then great: after you get it to him, pay as much TV as you would for an AG increase, and pay the opportunity cost of whatever else you'd do with that 20k starting cash, and now you have a lino with an automatic doubles roll. With your luck, you'll roll doubles on him anyway.

If I'm going to buy an Amazon Catcher, it'll be long after I've bought a Thrower. Throwers:
A) Are great on offense. Give 'em SH and they're ready to rock and roll. No, they're not as good as Human Throwers. So what?
B) Can take Leader. I don't know that you need 5RR, but I also don't know why you'd start with 4. 3 is more than enough, and an extra lino lets you foul with impunity.
C) Can take Nerves of Steel, making them excellent ball-hounds if you have a Blitzer ready to knock the ball free.

That's my 2Â¢.

PubBowler · Post by **PubBowler** » Thu Jun 07, 2007 11:18 am

mattgslater wrote:
C) Can take Nerves of Steel, making them excellent ball-hounds if you have a Blitzer ready to knock the ball free.

Are you hoping for the ball to land on your Nerves of Steel lass or forgetting that Nerves of Steel doesn't help you on pick ups?

mattgslater · Post by **mattgslater** » Thu Jun 07, 2007 4:42 pm

Nerves of Steel doesn't help on pick-ups; that's what SH is for. Nerves of Steel (your second selection) helps get the ball over to a nearby player without having to dodge. Given that you get Dodge for free, that doesn't sound great, but sometimes you can't get clear with only one dodge roll (usually also meaning you have penalties). Unfortunately, unless you can mutate, there IS no skill that helps you pick up the ball, beyond providing a re-roll.

If this ability (to capture and throw the ball from enemy TZs) doesn't seem like it would come up a lot, figure this: if you're winning, you're always on D. BB is in this respect the opposite of American Football. In American Football, you can get an ok picture of how a team is doing by how long its offense remains on the field; the team that keeps its offense up for an average of 32 minutes to 28 min. on defense is likely to be doing pretty well. In Blood Bowl, you know your team is doing well when you receive once at the beginning of either half, and then kick, repeatedly, for the rest of the match. Defense-oriented skills are therefore exceptionally important, and Nerves of Steel is one of the best.

After Sure Hands.

EDIT:
Ya know, I been thinking, and I think for a 'Zon Thrower I'd be just as likely to take Accurate for a 2nd sklll even on a D thrower. On a QB, it's obvious, but on the D, you'll find that it's at worst a wash for NOS, and doesn't commit you down the ball-hawk path. Either way, I think you'll get more mileage out of a Passing skill and Pass than and Agility skill and Catch (at least, given that Dodge is out of the equation).

mattgslater · Post by **mattgslater** » Thu Jun 07, 2007 4:43 pm

Once upon a time, you could Diving Catch when the ball landed next to your player. In those days, I'd have recommended a Catcher over a Thrower.

bouf · Post by **bouf** » Wed Jul 25, 2007 5:53 am

As league comissioner, Ive been talked out of playing Orcs so the newer coaches can use the teams out of the box without spamming the league with Orcs and Humans (We have 3 of each already).

And with my current financial situation (Bloody Taxes) preventing the purchase of new minis (I was thinking Slann till the tax bill came), I'm looking at borrowing a mates Shadowforge Bunnies (thanks Greedy) and giving the 'Zons a shot.

Now, normaly I play High ST teams... I have more games clocked up with Chaos and Orcs than I can count and recently I had some success with Ogres, and now I'm a bit worried that I'll get murdered with ST3 AV7 accross the board.

I'd like to reignite the Good Zon tactics line of discussion.

Development seems pretty straight forward

First few Linewomen - Block, Dauntless (Guard)
Other Linewomen - Wrestle, Tackle (Guard)
1or2 Linewomen - Kick, Dirty Player (Sneaky Git)
Catcher - Block, Diving Tackle or Side Step (Guard)
Thrower - Sure Hands, Dump Off (Catch or Jump up)
Blitzer - Guard, Mighty Blow (Jump Up)

Offence looks pretty easy... (well easier than Ogres)

Beat on whoever you can, foul anyone with Low AV if you have a man advantage, make the other guy blitz and deny him blocks... A good ol' running game!

But Defence has me stumped a bit...

I played Chaos last night in a trial game and found that I was relying on his errors to cause a turn over... I really struggled against that high ST and it was my Blitzers who saved the day (starting with block FTW)

From earlier in this post I see that getting Kick early so you can limit the opponents ability to cage seems to be pretty important for Zons. I feel that Wrestle and Dauntless will get very helpful as long as I get a Guarder in there.

What other tips do you guys have... Amazons are one of the onlyteams I've never coached nor seen on the pitch. They are really new ground for me!

Tante Kaethe · Post by **Tante Kaethe** » Wed Jul 25, 2007 6:38 am

@Bouf
I think you have the setup and the tactics right

! I have played Amazons quite a lot under LRB4 and they are bashy - they had a higher casualty rate than my Undead- and Ogre-Team

! And I do think that LRB5 include some changes that benefit the Amazons, namely easy access to Dauntless and Frenzy (no more doubles required). However, I used to foul a lot under LRB4 but with the new fouling rules it's not as good as it used to be...

As for first skill choices I'd take Guard on three Blitzers and Mighty Blow on the fourth followed by Piling On

. Second skills for the others should be Frenzy and Dauntless and after that Mighty Blow for everyone.

Playing offense is indeed quite easy, it's not too hard to keep the cage moving with all your mobile players. On defense against fast teams you need Diving Tackle Catchers and Wrestle/Tackle Linos. Against bashy teams you'll have to slow down the cage, again Wrestle (and Fend?) Linos should be great for this. Just stay one square away from the cage and dodge away all players leaving your opponent only one Blitz per turn.

And most importantly - take out his Tackle/Mighty Blow player(s) out first! Really!! Only one player of this kind can wreck your team. If he's got not Tackler left you'll probably win

.

Cheers

Tante Käthe

bouf · Post by **bouf** » Fri Jul 27, 2007 3:17 am

Well I've started my Zon team and the league starts on Tuesday!

The Seminary Devils take the pitch for their Season and career opening game and the pressure is high.

Check out my teams home page Here!

My plan is to buy the Shadow forge nuns ASAP. Now Will I surive to see the season finals???

I'm starting with 3 Blitzers, 2 Throwers, 2 Catchers, 5 linenuns, 3 RRs and an Apoth...

Here is my Planned Skill progression
Linenun (x2): Block, Dauntless, Pro, Frenzy, Pass Block (Guard, Multiple Block)
Linenun (x1): Kick, Dirty Player, Wrestle, Fend, Tackle (Sneaky Git, Guard)
Linenun (x4): Wrestle, Tackle, Dauntless, Fend, Strip Ball (Guard, Side Step)

Thrower (x1): Dump Off, Nerves of Steel, Wrestle, Accurate, Leader (Catch, Jump Up)
Thrower (x1): Kick-off Return, Sure Hands, Accurate, Wrestle, Nerves of Steel (Catch, Jump Up)

Catcher (x2): Block, Side Step, Diving Tackle, Sneaky Git, Sure Feet (Guard, Nerves of Steel)

Blitzer (x1): Mighty Blow, Tackle, Pile On, Dauntless, Pro (Jump Up)
Blitzer (x3): Guard, Mighty Blow, Stand Firm, Grab, Juggernaught (Diving Tackle, Jump Up)

Wilf · Post by **Wilf** » Fri Jul 27, 2007 11:07 am

Pubbowler said: Amazons are a great running team.
You don't need throwers or catchers, just get a Blitzer with Sure Hands and surround her with Blitzers with Guard.

Where did you get that idea from?

[/quote]

datalorex · Post by **datalorex** » Fri Jul 27, 2007 2:02 pm

Wilf wrote:Pubbowler said: Amazons are a great running team.
You don't need throwers or catchers, just get a Blitzer with Sure Hands and surround her with Blitzers with Guard.

Where did you get that idea from?

[/quote]

You guys keep saying Catchers aren't needed in a running game, but you forget you get rerolls on handoffs with the catch skill so I say take the catchers!

datalorex · Post by **datalorex** » Fri Jul 27, 2007 2:05 pm

bouf wrote:Well I've started my Zon team and the league starts on Tuesday!

The Seminary Devils take the pitch for their Season and career opening game and the pressure is high.

Check out my teams home page Here!

My plan is to buy the Shadow forge nuns ASAP. Now Will I surive to see the season finals???

I'm starting with 3 Blitzers, 2 Throwers, 2 Catchers, 5 linenuns, 3 RRs and an Apoth...

How can you NOT take 4 Blitzers?

Rituro · Post by **Rituro** » Fri Jul 27, 2007 2:20 pm

bouf wrote:Here is my Planned Skill progression
Thrower (x1): Dump Off, Nerves of Steel, Wrestle, Accurate, Leader (Catch, Jump Up)
Thrower (x1): Kick-off Return, Sure Hands, Accurate, Wrestle, Nerves of Steel (Catch, Jump Up)

If you manage to roll doubles on that second thrower, you may want to consider Strong Arm. Chained with Accurate, you'll be passing with laser accuracy.

PubBowler · Post by **PubBowler** » Fri Jul 27, 2007 2:27 pm

Wilf wrote:Pubbowler said: Amazons are a great running team.
You don't need throwers or catchers, just get a Blitzer with Sure Hands and surround her with Blitzers with Guard.

Where did you get that idea from?

[/quote]

I seem to remember one of yours having Stand Firm as well.
Which must mean I was thinking of some other Amazon tournie team...

Aliboon · Post by **Aliboon** » Fri Jul 27, 2007 4:05 pm

Thrower (x1): Dump Off, Nerves of Steel, Wrestle, Accurate, Leader (Catch, Jump Up)
Thrower (x1): Kick-off Return, Sure Hands, Accurate, Wrestle, Nerves of Steel (Catch, Jump Up)

Why do you want Wrestle on your throwers? To use them as safeties? Personally I wouldn't chose that, cos if you have the ball, get blocked and have to wrestle, you still lose the ball. I'd rather go block to stay on my feet (certainly on the 2nd one, if you've already dumped off the ball, it doesn't matter so much on the 1st).

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And the first skill is ...

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