Odd CW question - new to LRB 5

fen · Post by **fen** » Thu Oct 25, 2007 7:55 pm

Oh yes, I always build a Block, MB + PO killer with Chaos or Nurgle. But it's never one of the Warriors, I prefer those guys to keep on their feet. So instead it's often a Pestigor or a Beastman.

brownrob's pestigor in the mbbl is a good example of the kind of killer I like to see.

http://www.midgardbb.com/MBBL/teamView.php?teamid=83

A few more weeks and he'll be clear top of the table for CAS. Go Iron Swiftfoot go!

BadMrMojo · Post by **BadMrMojo** » Thu Oct 25, 2007 8:59 pm

I already figured out the situational nature of Claw, I was just pointing out the direction that the other chaos team was headed. Versus those AV 8 minos, Claw's nothing but Mighty Blow without the chance to get a +1 on injury.

I guess there's still nothing to beat Block on the CWs for an all around defensive skill, however. I just thought I'd check and see if I was overlooking something glaringly obvious in the new version and I got a little carried away looking for it.

Thanks, guys.

Jural · Post by **Jural** » Thu Oct 25, 2007 10:34 pm

I think he asked for good skills that AREN'T block

I agree with what everyone said, but if you are looking for some interesting skill choices, Prehensile Tail or tentacles across the line can do nasty things against some teams.

By the way, a Chaos Warrior can become a nasty ball carrier. Sure Hancds, Block and Foul Appearance, coupled with Dodge if you roll doubles, all on a Strength 4 piece is amazing. It is the best combo you can (regarding holding on to the ball) outside of getting higher strength

mattgslater · Post by **mattgslater** » Fri Oct 26, 2007 3:57 am

Even after nerfing, Stand Firm is fun fun fun. Don't put him on the line: put a Stand Firm CW (esp. one with Block) in a linebacker position that's likely to get blitzed. A Block/SF CW is a great cage-stopper, and against a ST3 team you don't really need to back him up directly, allowing for a clean, effective nickel formation or compensating for being down below 11 men without ceding the wide zones (always a concern for an AV8 bash team, especially one with nobody faster than MA6). I'd probably take it as a second skill, but if you're tired of "Block/Guard" or "Block/Mighty Blow" then "Block/Stand Firm" is a viable alternative. I like (edit: Prehensile Tail), Disturbing Presence or Foul Appearance as a third skill: Guard is good, as long as you don't read too much into it -- his job is to take a hit, not to assist someone else taking a hit. On doubles, Dodge makes him a monster.

mattgslater · Post by **mattgslater** » Fri Oct 26, 2007 4:04 am

Jural wrote:By the way, a Chaos Warrior can become a nasty ball carrier.

Totally true. The thing that makes CWs cool is that if one gets the MVP, you can try to work a completion onto him. If one gets two Casualties, you can use him to run the ball for the TD. That gets you a roll, and Block, and the SPP ball is now rolling. That's why CWs are and will always be WAY better than BOBs or even Sauri (who are also better than BOBs, and may be as good a deal for the dollars as CWs). Also, EVERY stat increase is a Woo-Hoo! moment, even +AG. Any Orc coach can tell you that rolling an 11 on a BOB, while no longer a major disappointment, still sort of feels like a wasted roll.

fen · Post by **fen** » Fri Oct 26, 2007 8:01 am

Jural wrote:I agree with what everyone said, but if you are looking for some interesting skill choices, Prehensile Tail or tentacles across the line can do nasty things against some teams.

Prehensile Tail yes, Tentacles No. You want at least ST5 before you start using tentacles and it doesn't stack as effectively as PT does. I'd take PT as skill #4 over tentacles anyday, why pay 20K and a skill roll for something that works less than 50% of the time and doesn't even have a passive knock down effect? (Skill #4 because I always take Block, Guard and one other skill - often Stand Firm - first).

mattgslater · Post by **mattgslater** » Fri Oct 26, 2007 3:14 pm

fen wrote:Prehensile Tail yes, Tentacles No. You want at least ST5 before you start using tentacles and it doesn't stack as effectively as PT does.

Oh yeah. I forgot about the new Tentacles nerf, which seems heavy: maybe the skill just needs to be redesigned. I edited my earlier advice about Stand Firm above... though come to think of it, crappy tentacles can still force the opponent to go the other way: it's not great for coverage, but it makes it hard to justify trying to go through him. PT is still better, as it instills the same doubt, plus the "am I going to get killed?" question.

BadMrMojo · Post by **BadMrMojo** » Fri Oct 26, 2007 3:50 pm

Yeah. I was thinking of Tentacles a deterrent. Like Pass Block, even when it doesn't get used, it's just another way to dictate what your opponent does.

You've completely convinced me on PT instead, though. I was incorrectly thinking of it as a 50/50 chance (I forgot that you have to beat their score +1) and another roll to screw up, but I think I was underestimating the threat of a turnover, loss of TZs and armor roll as well. I still kind of like the odds of tentacles (more rolls for them = mo' bettah for me), but fen's right and the chance of a knockdown is definitely worth more.

Either way, there's still nothing anywhere near a substitute for Block on the first skill. I just wasn't sure if I was missing something new.

With 5 move, I'm more than happy to try the odd pass/td for a skill (next game, for example, the guy with a cas and td already is going to be trying to play elfy for a few turns), but I'm definitely not planning on making any of them dedicated ball carriers. Just too slow for my taste and I really want them defensively-oriented, since my offense - even with just unskilled beastmen - is not usually the problem.

stormmaster1 · Post by **stormmaster1** » Fri Oct 26, 2007 4:35 pm

for defensively orientated skills guard is king imo.

datalorex · Post by **datalorex** » Sat Oct 27, 2007 1:09 am

Joemanji wrote:
fen wrote:
BadMrMojo wrote:One other factor that I forgot to mention is the other chaos team. Having played the same guy's minor league chaos, it's abundantly clear that he's going to be after all all-out destroyer team. His 7s team has at least 3 or 4 guys with Claw for their first skill, I think.
tbh that's a mistake. If you want a killer team from the start Mighty Blow is the skill you choose ahead of claw. Honestly I'd go Block, Mighty Blow, Claw every time I'm building a killer Chaos player. That order has always resulted in them topping the league for Casualties.
I might even take Piling On before Claw. MB + PO is the real killer in LRB5, Claw is just situationall awesome against certain teams, and allows Chaos to bash even against Dwarfs and Orcs. Of course you have to go prone to use it, so Claw is better for other players. But for a first killer PO beats Claw hands down.

Claw is NOT situational. It is valueable against virtually every team in BB. 20/21 teams have players with 8AV or higher. True, a few teams have only 1 or 2 players with AV8 or higher, but it's still useful.

fen · Post by **fen** » Sat Oct 27, 2007 11:16 am

Umm, by it's design claw is situational. Against most opponents Mighty Blow is better. Claw is only more effective at getting an injury against AV9+ opponents, against all the rest Mighty Blow is better.
You'd only consider Claw before Mighty Blow if a huge amount of the league was AV9+, not AV8+.

datalorex · Post by **datalorex** » Sun Oct 28, 2007 1:05 am

fen wrote:Umm, by it's design claw is situational. Against most opponents Mighty Blow is better. Claw is only more effective at getting an injury against AV9+ opponents, against all the rest Mighty Blow is better.
You'd only consider Claw before Mighty Blow if a huge amount of the league was AV9+, not AV8+.

RRR, wrong. Your argument was Piling on before Claw, not MB before Claw. No one's going to argue that MB is better than Claw (although I often take Claw first because of the teams in my league). But how can a skill that is useful against 20/21 teams be situational (and what do you mean 'by design Claw is situation'? Were you in on the rules committee or something?)? Claw is better than PO and should be taken before PO.

Snew · Post by **Snew** » Sun Oct 28, 2007 1:36 am

... if there's only 2 players on a team... For me, my skills are always on the guy across the goard that needs to dodge through multiple TZs. So for me it is situational.

datalorex · Post by **datalorex** » Sun Oct 28, 2007 5:48 am

Snew wrote:... if there's only 2 players on a team... For me, my skills are always on the guy across the goard that needs to dodge through multiple TZs. So for me it is situational.

Well, if your definition of 'situational' is that you can't use it against every player, then yeah, it's situational. But then again, Block can't be used against every player either, so I guess it's situational too.

Jural · Post by **Jural** » Sun Oct 28, 2007 5:55 am

datalorex wrote: (and what do you mean 'by design Claw is situation'? Were you in on the rules committee or something?)?

Fen may have actually come up with the rule for Claw as it is now, but maybe not. Anyway, some player actually suggested that. The challenge with Claw was to make it a skill which did not totally turn into a team killer but which was worth choosing with Mighty Blow in the game.

Claw was changed because mutations were changed so Chaos Players could take them on every roll, as part of the removal of the trait system, I suppose. Some players preferred different solutions (I always preferred +1 to AV and stacking with Mighty Blow... but the current version works well- I see that now.)

Anyway, Galak was very open about all changes, and most of the rationales. Fen is right on. The skill is meant to give it's holder a boost against high AV teams, and do nothing against low AV opponents. Hence it's situational, not universal.

We can all agree it's not as situational as Tackle, or Safe Throw. But it is situational, by design.