AG4 Orc Blitzer?

Want to know how to beat your opponents, then get advice, or give advice here.

Moderators: Valen, TFF Mods

User avatar
mattgslater
King of Comedy
Posts: 7758
Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2005 5:18 pm
Location: Far to the west, across the great desert, in the fabled Land of Comedy

Post by mattgslater »

Using your numbers from the first post,

Code: Select all

- - - -|- - B T B - -|- - - -
- - 2 -|- B - - - B -|- 4 - -
- 1 - -|t - - - - - L|- - 3 -
Once 1 and 3 have Stand Firm, this is very hard to break into, unless you've got a fast team with Juggernaut (Humans, developed Lizards, and, um, um, um...). Guard starts to matter for #2 (you could easily swap out 3 and 2 if 2 looks like he'll go up first: sometimes MB/Tackle is a goldmine).

Black Orc corners aren't bad early-on, especially against the grind, but understand that MA4 can't get to midfield from the corner without GFI'ing twice. That sucks sometimes. Use them near the line, where they simply can't be caught out-of-position. Remember, if your corners are prohibitive, an agility team will go up the middle. A BOB with Block and Frenzy, once you've got some good development to build another inside linebacker to replace him (or a strong safety to cover for a lesser inside linebacker, like a Blitzer with Guard and Lino with Block), can play outside LB next to the Dodge/Stand Firm Blitzer: anyone who goes that way is cruisin' for a crowd-push.

Reason: ''
What is Nuffle's view? Through a window, two-by-three. He peers through snake eyes.
What is Nuffle's lawn? Inches, squares, and tackle zones: Reddened blades of grass.
What is Nuffle's tree? Risk its trunk, space the branches. Touchdowns are its fruit.
User avatar
wesleytj
Legend
Legend
Posts: 3260
Joined: Sun Jul 07, 2002 3:41 pm
Location: Terre Haute, IN USA
Contact:

Post by wesleytj »

The only part of the lineup I do the same as Matt (typically, depends of course on opponent) is the front 3. After that mine is like this:

Code: Select all

- - - -|- - B T B - -|- - - -
- - - 1|2 - - - - - 3|4 - - -
- B - -|- - t - t - - |- - B -
I want Block and Guard on everybody up front, and Guard on ALL the blitzers The Black Orcs on the corners want Block and StandFirm, Diving Tackle on Doubles. The throwers (or Goblins or line orcs, however you like to roll - on my defense I tend to have 1 thrower and 1 gobbo, but that depends on who the opponent is and such) in the middle act as safeties, to use the NFL terminology.
Black Orc corners aren't bad early-on, especially against the grind, but understand that MA4 can't get to midfield from the corner without GFI'ing twice. That sucks sometimes.
I've never had it pose much of a problem for me. In my experience, if I force my opponent to the middle of the field, I can collapse in from all sides and it's bad for them. And they have to get through the troll and bob wall up front to get there, too. Frankly, defense with orcs has NEVER been my problem. I win lots of 1-0 and 2-1 games with them. The part of my orc game that needs more work is offense. My base mindset is always wood elf tactics, and I sometimes lack the patience to grind slowly enough.
Use them near the line, where they simply can't be caught out-of-position. Remember, if your corners are prohibitive, an agility team will go up the middle.
Again, I welcome that, because it generally negates their speed advantage, and I can collapse down and turn the middle of the field into a big scrum. Now, if they have lots of Leap, that's something else entirely. :)
A BOB with Block and Frenzy, once you've got some good development to build another inside linebacker to replace him (or a strong safety to cover for a lesser inside linebacker, like a Blitzer with Guard and Lino with Block), can play outside LB next to the Dodge/Stand Firm Blitzer: anyone who goes that way is cruisin' for a crowd-push.
Funny, I do that in the exact reverse order. I give Frenzy to one or two Blitzers and use the Black Orcs with guard to help them crowdsurf. Your way works fine too though. That's what makes this discussion fun - neither way is necessarily "wrong", just different. Find what works for you and make the skills fit around that.

Reason: ''
____________________________________
Chinese Relativity Axiom: No matter how great your achievements, or how miserable your failures, there will always be about 1 Billion people in China who won't give a damn.
PubBowler
Legend
Legend
Posts: 2073
Joined: Wed Nov 15, 2006 2:41 pm
Location: Glasgow

Post by PubBowler »

wesleytj wrote: That's what makes this discussion fun - neither way is necessarily "wrong", just different. Find what works for you and make the skills fit around that.
Not wanting to hijack the topic but I see this as being a stereotypical gray fallacy.

There are going to be tactics which work only within a small group of locally based coaches but won't stand up to cream of FUMBBL, MBBL or TT (normally tournie) play.

Tactics which work in those environments are going to be better able to match up to local league play.

P.S. This is not meant to be a dig at small leagues from some high horse. When I was playing 3rd edition they were half a dozen of us and no-one thought to take Guard. No-one. And I won nearly all my games.
Only when I move somewhere else & got my arse handed to me by coaches who did take Guard did I realise how poor I was.

Not saying I'm a whole lot better now like but I do at least use Guard...

Reason: ''
Team Scotland Record:
EuroBowl 2009: 3-2-1

Gimmicks>Shennanigans>Everything Else
User avatar
mattgslater
King of Comedy
Posts: 7758
Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2005 5:18 pm
Location: Far to the west, across the great desert, in the fabled Land of Comedy

Post by mattgslater »

Actually, that's one of the great things about Orcs in particular. There's no one killer orc set up, but there are many very good ones.

Reason: ''
What is Nuffle's view? Through a window, two-by-three. He peers through snake eyes.
What is Nuffle's lawn? Inches, squares, and tackle zones: Reddened blades of grass.
What is Nuffle's tree? Risk its trunk, space the branches. Touchdowns are its fruit.
User avatar
wesleytj
Legend
Legend
Posts: 3260
Joined: Sun Jul 07, 2002 3:41 pm
Location: Terre Haute, IN USA
Contact:

Post by wesleytj »

PubBowler wrote: There are going to be tactics which work only within a small group of locally based coaches but won't stand up to cream of FUMBBL, MBBL or TT (normally tournie) play.
Sure, I understand that. I played BB online a LOT when I was in college. I only played one or two games ever on FUMBBL, but literally hundreds of games in OLBBL and other large online leagues, some as far back as 1993 or 94. I had a job working in a computer lab on campus and it was great. Not too many other people can say they got paid to play BB regularly.

Anyway, that really opened my eyes to what you're talking about - some things might fly in a small regional environment that would never work against "la creme de la creme" so to speak.

That said, even among those types, there is often still more than one "right" to do things, often several are equally effective. Furthermore, what may work for one coach, might not fit the particular style or mindset of another, even two coaches of very high skill.

Reason: ''
____________________________________
Chinese Relativity Axiom: No matter how great your achievements, or how miserable your failures, there will always be about 1 Billion people in China who won't give a damn.
User avatar
t3clis
Experienced
Experienced
Posts: 110
Joined: Thu Nov 27, 2003 12:52 am
Location: Tilea
Contact:

Post by t3clis »

And more importantly, you are trying to have fun while playing :D (this being said, Guard still rocks - but I'm the first to pick skills that are alternate to no-brainers... that's it: alternate skills, alternate luck (Nuffle is a fickle god))

Reason: ''
[color=#6699EE]t3clis[/color]
Can't find your answer here? Then, what are you waiting for? [url=http://www.specialist-games.com/bloodbowl/lordborak.asp]Ask Lord Borak![/url]
whitetiger
Star Player
Star Player
Posts: 558
Joined: Sat Jan 26, 2008 10:48 pm
Location: Ohio, USA

Post by whitetiger »

Used to play an Orc team that had block and stand firm on all 4 BOBs. He put them on the LOS with one square seperation between them. Then 2 blitzers with frenzy and 2 with guard on the outside. Two throwers with block and such as linebackers and a lino with a speed increase as center safety. They were beatable once I got 2 Dark Elves with 5 AG and leap, but they were still a pain to deal with.

Reason: ''
It's a Dark Elf world, we just let you live in it to provide fresh victims. - and I still want an Executioner to kill sauruses with.
Biff
Rookie
Rookie
Posts: 51
Joined: Tue Feb 26, 2008 2:37 pm

Post by Biff »

Thanks for the advice. Ill probabky use this line up:

Code: Select all

- - - -|- - B T B - -|- - - -
- - 1 -|- 2 - - - 3 -|- 4 - -
- B1 - -|T - - - - - L|- - B2 -
Or:

Code: Select all

- - - -|- - B T B - -|- - - -
- - 1 -|- L - - - L -|- 4 - -
- B1 - -|2 - - - - - 3|- - B2 -

I know that once the offence breaks through the wide zone defence the orcs are too slow to respond, so my main concern is to keep that from happening.

B1 is ST5 and B2 has Stand Firm. And no, theyre not bananas...;)

Reason: ''
User avatar
mattgslater
King of Comedy
Posts: 7758
Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2005 5:18 pm
Location: Far to the west, across the great desert, in the fabled Land of Comedy

Post by mattgslater »

I'm not even sure that defense is too slow to respond: MA6 safeties are solid. Got a lino with Block and Fend? Then you can put one Blitzer with SF opposite him and have a Blitzer-safety, which means you only need one SF Blitzer and have three guys who can develop in more-or-less the same way (the only difference between a Safety and an outside LB as an Orc Blitzer is that the OLB goes for Guard and MB/Tackle/Frenzy, while the safety goes for Tackle and MB/Frenzy).

Those BOB corners will do a fair job, a good one if they have Block (Block/SF on ST4 is good vs. agility except against an Ogre or Rat Ogre, and either skill plus ST5+ is good vs. agility in all cases). One thing you might want to do once you can trust your inside LBs is to drop your corners and/or safeties back a square (an argument for bringing the BOBs inside and putting Blitzers on the corners, so you can drop back SF Blitzers: this is particularly cool, as it forces the opponent to move their guys an extra square along the outside even if they do knock him down). Don't do this if you don't have Stand Firm on your ILBs.

You know, if you have a ST5 BOB and a Troll and the oppo has no +ST, then you can use them either on the ends of the d-line (defensive end) or at inside linebacker. This gives all-ST3 teams fits, as they have no 1db options without a 3+ Dauntless check.

Reason: ''
What is Nuffle's view? Through a window, two-by-three. He peers through snake eyes.
What is Nuffle's lawn? Inches, squares, and tackle zones: Reddened blades of grass.
What is Nuffle's tree? Risk its trunk, space the branches. Touchdowns are its fruit.
whitetiger
Star Player
Star Player
Posts: 558
Joined: Sat Jan 26, 2008 10:48 pm
Location: Ohio, USA

Post by whitetiger »

If you can load up your LOS with ST 5 guys and then load the outside linebackers and/or corners with standfirm you force the offense into a outside/inside move, meaning they have to go around your LOS, but then they have to cut back to the inside to get downfield. When they make that inside move, your inside linebackers and other wides can come crashing down on them. Even woodies and gutterrunners have problems with that. They use too many squares of movement going side to side instead of downfield.

Reason: ''
It's a Dark Elf world, we just let you live in it to provide fresh victims. - and I still want an Executioner to kill sauruses with.
User avatar
Der_Doodle
Veteran
Veteran
Posts: 268
Joined: Tue Apr 22, 2008 5:55 pm
Location: Germany

Post by Der_Doodle »

@ whitetiger

Could you translate that into a picture for me please? I am still too easy confused with that Football slang *blush*

Reason: ''
User avatar
mattgslater
King of Comedy
Posts: 7758
Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2005 5:18 pm
Location: Far to the west, across the great desert, in the fabled Land of Comedy

Post by mattgslater »

whitetiger wrote:Used to play an Orc team that had block and stand firm on all 4 BOBs. He put them on the LOS with one square seperation between them. Then 2 blitzers with frenzy and 2 with guard on the outside. Two throwers with block and such as linebackers and a lino with a speed increase as center safety. They were beatable once I got 2 Dark Elves with 5 AG and leap, but they were still a pain to deal with.
I can't speak for WT, but I think he means this on the line:

- - - -|X - X - X - X|- - - -

Against bash, when you don't have enough Block/SF/Guard to avoid giving up 2d blocks no matter what, you can do something very similar.

- - - -|X - - X - - X|- - - - with the 4th guy directly behind the nose, or plugged in at one of the outside linebacker positions (for a "dime" package, or six backfielders: see below).

Either one of these defenses lets you run a "nickel" defense. With four linemen and two linebackers, or three and three, you can have a third safety (it's called "nickel" because you have three safeties and two corners, for five backfielders: if you have six backfielders, it's two nickels, or a "dime"). This is good against Leap, and against the grind, as it leaves you an extra man free to cover in the backfield, or to move anywhere up on the cage to provide an assist.

Code: Select all

Nickel
- - - -|X - - X - - X|- - - -
- - X -|- - - X - - -|- X - -
- X - -|X - - X - - X|- - X -
or
- - - -|X - X - X - X|- - - -
- - X -| - - - - - - -|- X - -
- X - -|X - - X - - X|- - X -

Dime
- - - -|X - - X - - X|- - - -
- - X -|- - - - - - -|- X - -
- X - -|- - - - - - -|- - X -
- - - -|X - X - X - X|- - - -
or
- - - -|X - - X - - X|- - - -
- - X -|- - - - - - -|- X - -
- X - -|X - - X - - X|- - X -
- - - -|- - - X - - -|- - - -
With just five instances of Stand Firm and/or Side Step, this is unbelievably annoying.

Reason: ''
What is Nuffle's view? Through a window, two-by-three. He peers through snake eyes.
What is Nuffle's lawn? Inches, squares, and tackle zones: Reddened blades of grass.
What is Nuffle's tree? Risk its trunk, space the branches. Touchdowns are its fruit.
Biff
Rookie
Rookie
Posts: 51
Joined: Tue Feb 26, 2008 2:37 pm

Post by Biff »

Code: Select all

- - - -|ST5 - - BOB - - ST5|- - - -
- - G -|- - - BOB - - -|- G - -
- SF- -|X - - X - - X|- - SF -
Something like this?

G=Guard

Reason: ''
User avatar
mattgslater
King of Comedy
Posts: 7758
Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2005 5:18 pm
Location: Far to the west, across the great desert, in the fabled Land of Comedy

Post by mattgslater »

Against all-ST3, that defense makes you the bogeyman.

Reason: ''
What is Nuffle's view? Through a window, two-by-three. He peers through snake eyes.
What is Nuffle's lawn? Inches, squares, and tackle zones: Reddened blades of grass.
What is Nuffle's tree? Risk its trunk, space the branches. Touchdowns are its fruit.
Post Reply