Couple Questions for human team development

Big-Bad-Bear · Post by **Big-Bad-Bear** » Thu Jul 23, 2009 3:19 am

Played the High Elves as the Orcs did not show this week. Turned out pretty well, I received 300,000 in inducements so I bought a freebooting ogre and an extra apoth. Finished with a 3-3 tie giving me a 2-2-2 record over all. Keeps me right in the middle of the pack and leaves me with one more team that has a high team value and the rest around my level. My goal is to finish 5th in the league as it would still get me a bye week but also let me play a decently close level opponent and not one of the weaker team killers (who would get to focus on the top seeds).

Unfortunately I had a Lineman die (fortunately he was a rookie), and another qualifying for a shiny new miss next game. This leaves me with four available for me next game. The ogre makes his long awaited return next game and I have 80K in the bank after hiring the new Catcher and receiving this weeks winnings. A blitzer received a skill (the other guy with tackle) and was immediately given Guard.

So what should I do now? Hire another lineman? Hope I get inducements to do so? Maybe now hire another thrower to give me another passing game option? Or should I just save the money and wait till I am able to buy a new ogre?

I'm leaning towards a new thrower but as of right now I am very happy with my accurate/block one and would like to focus on getting him another skill. At my present passing output (3 completions a game), he should have another skill in the next 5 games which would almost be play offs. This makes me not want to part with any valuable SPP's. I know I'd like 14 players for the next game.

mattgslater · Post by **mattgslater** » Thu Jul 23, 2009 3:38 am

Don't hire a Lineman: you only want to carry 5.

Wait, the next game is against High Elves? Why do you need 14 players? What's the High Elves' TV? You might be best off standing pat and inducing something instead. I'm still not of the opinion that you should fire an AV8 Ogre, but it'd be nice to have lots of cash in the bank in case someone dies. Even if you do drop 50k - 70k on a player, you should be saving for a TRR.

If you're the overdog, or if you're going up against bash, get another Thrower. There's absolutely no reason that your Thrower has to play QB. You can use the new one as a receiver until he improves, then get him Kick-off Return and make him a dedicated ball-guy on offense. This way, when the Accurate/Block guy goes up, you can skill him with general-purpose skills, like Nerves or Fend (given the format, maybe Fend... Nerves is better when you hit the #4 skill and take Dump-Off, but you won't), or Catch or Dodge on doubles. Place him near midfield, and depending on where the ball goes (and the turn number), he can drop back out or run up to the cage, and you can get him the ball. Then, as you move the cage up he can score or distribute, letting you threaten a TD even if your cage collapses (critical at AV8). The KOR guy, meanwhile, starts out just behind him, and on kickoffs he moves closer to the ball to make the pass easier. This also lets you field your Thrower all the time, and gives you insurance if anything happens to him.

I do it all the time with Orcs, and the Orc Thrower is seriously inferior. The difference is Humans' low TRR price, meaning they don't need Leader. But the Human Thrower-as-RB works a more dynamic game. On defense, the Block/Acc/Fend guy has all kinds of applications, but the "QB" (lesser player, counterintuitive though it may be) only plays on defense if you've got 3 guys missing.

Big-Bad-Bear · Post by **Big-Bad-Bear** » Thu Jul 30, 2009 3:23 am

Had great luck with skills/games lately. Record now stands at 4-2-2. I played the two top teams, lost to the wood elves 2-1 on a failed catch and tied the high elves 3-3 (almost a win but another failed catch). My past two games I've won by a combined 10-0 and out cas'd opponents 7-3!

My catcher with block got +mv or av. Gave him AV as he'll be an extra blitzer once he gets dauntless. Other catcher got +AV for first skill. Have two blitzers with guard (one has tackle, one MB), one with strip ball/juggernaut, and of course my tackle/jump up guy (which I now admit was a mistake).

Thrower just got another skill on doubles. Has Accurate and Block already. Was thinking Strong Arm or Safe Throw? Not sure what else really. Maybe Leader?

Hired a lineman, just lost two to death, so I now have four linemen and 180,000 in the kitty. Recommendations... Fire/Re-hire an ogre? Buy the two linemen?

mattgslater · Post by **mattgslater** » Thu Jul 30, 2009 6:06 am

Strong Arm Thrower! Fire/re-hire the Ogre.

Carnis · Post by **Carnis** » Thu Jul 30, 2009 11:40 am

Guard is always a strong candidate for thrower/lineman doubles. I would not have taken +AV on the catchers. 10-0 sounds like your opponents are not up to your level though, or you are playing all snotlings!

mattgslater · Post by **mattgslater** » Thu Jul 30, 2009 1:50 pm

Maybe, maybe not. Some key injuries, some good luck, and you can do it against relatively tough opposition once in a while.

Big-Bad-Bear · Post by **Big-Bad-Bear** » Thu Jul 30, 2009 7:04 pm

Carnis wrote:10-0 sounds like your opponents are not up to your level though, or you are playing all snotlings!

I don't really like to talk bad about my opponents but I will say they weren't the greatest. I had great luck against the Orcs, managing to out hit them 3-0, the vampires was just a brutal game physically. I have to say I definitely don't want to tempt fate as my second game in the season I lost to an almost unskilled Chaos team with a rookie coach was a loss 2-1 due to paralyzing luck. The vampire player has a bit more luck on the first turn and I don't do a two-turn score on defense. Against the Wood Elves (the only undefeated team in the league) I failed beating them because of a go for it - ball goes into the crowd, a Wardancer picks it up, I strip ball him next turn, roll the dice and its on a Treeman! A bad run of dice is a game changer.

mattgslater · Post by **mattgslater** » Thu Jul 30, 2009 8:43 pm

Congrats on the two AV8 Catchers, by the way: saves you from needing a 3rd one, knocks 10k off your TV and spares 70k off your bench. I'd say one +AV isn't worth it, but two... that's cool.

Heh... maybe you should keep the Ogre. Then the whole team would be AV8.

4 wins now, huh? What's your strength of victory? That is, what's the combined record of the teams you've beaten?

Big-Bad-Bear · Post by **Big-Bad-Bear** » Thu Jul 30, 2009 10:53 pm

mattgslater wrote:Congrats on the two AV8 Catchers, by the way: saves you from needing a 3rd one, knocks 10k off your TV and spares 70k off your bench. I'd say one +AV isn't worth it, but two... that's cool.

Heh... maybe you should keep the Ogre. Then the whole team would be AV8.

4 wins now, huh? What's your strength of victory? That is, what's the combined record of the teams you've beaten?

My apologies, one catcher has +av, the other has +ag - big hands, little keyboard, you know how it is. The av catcher is being turned into a 5th blitzer and I've been using his as so the past couple games to great effect. He got 3 touchdowns in the two games yesterday, all defensive. Giving him Dauntless will be great for the team as his next skill. I think ag 4 catcher will be getting leap, even though I feel its pushing his luck to not give him block as soon as possible.

I think I'll keep the Ogre for now, pick up an extra lineman and perhaps an extra thrower as well. I like keeping 14 players on the roster just in case i get into a game like the one with the vampires that saw my Ogre miss the rest of the game and two linemen die. Thrower is definitely getting Strong Arm.

Strength of schedule is a little tricky. There's a definite divide between the teams, And some teams managed to get all their games in earlier than others. I'll do their records as best as I can remember. Most of the league are newer to the game so its a bit misleading. Myself, the Necromatic coach and the Wood Elves probably have played the longest.

(Win/Loss/Draw)
Wood Elves 9-0-1
High Elves 7-1-2
Necromatic 7-1-2
Humans/Me 4-2-2
Dark Elves - one or two wins over .500 I believe
Halflings, Vampires - In or around .500
Norse 3-7-0
Chaos, Orcs and other Orcs are in a three-way tied for last place. I believe each has one or two wins. Each has a game or two left.

Game by game breakdown (in order) is kind of like this.
(Team - TD F/A - Cas - F/A)

Necromatic - 2-2 - 2-1. This was almost a win but my thrower failed a go for it. In retrospect I probably should have passed rather than trying to get it from long pass to short pass. My completely stock team vs my friends team with a value of 1,460,000. Only inducements were a couple apoths and Mighty Zug.

Chaos - 1-2 - 2-1. Never have I had a game that made me want to quit but damn this one was close. I had two turns on offense where I scored with great success. Every other turn kind of went like that last turn of the game thrower: attempt to pick up fail/pass, pass attempt fail/pass, catcher: attempt to catch fail/fail

Orcs - 3-1 - 1-3. Catcher dies on the last turn. Other than that not much to say, was in control for most turns.

Norse - 2-0 - 1-1. Nothing to say here really. Guy was trying to tear my team apart and really had no interest in trying to play the game at all beyond that. Next season he wants to be dwarves - yay.

Wood Elves - 1-2 - 0-1. Great game, unfortunately went from 1-1 tie almost scoring with a lineman but failed the go for it, caused the ball to go end to end with my opponent scoring for the win. Was his last game of the season so I ended up with something like 300K or 350K in inducements.

High Elves - 3-3 - 1-2. Another great game what was back and forth. Two offensive TD's and One defensive TD each. Came down to a tactical error on my part where I should have boxed in two players around the ball but I left a spot open to try to force two dodges. He picks the ball up in two tackle zones, dodges out and manages to pass to a player in the open and get the game tying score.

Orcs - 7-0 - 3-0. It was just a track meet. I scored 6 defensive touchdowns, skilled up four different players including a rookie catcher. I out-casualtied the Orcs for gods sake! What sense does that make? Luck was on my side. My opponent said he was absolutely stunned with the way I played defense.

Vampire - 3-0 - 4-3. Had two linemen die, as well as my Ogre get knocked out of the game after he dedicated 4 thralls into head hunting it. As far as I'm concerned that's worth his value right there. Finally got his first casualty as well.

All I have left is Dark Elves and Halflings. Then the playoffs start.

Gimli · Post by **Gimli** » Fri Aug 07, 2009 2:44 am

[quote="mattgslater"].

If the Thrower gets doubles, give him Strong Arm so you can chuck long passes at will. This will make your two-turner a snap (almost elfy... almost), and will let you build a solid four-turn cage: drop the Thrower out of blitzing range, build the cage, and run a Catcher up the gut to play safety-valve. If they neutralize your two-turn option, as they must, then your cage will have that much less pressure, and you can open the front, pick a wide zone, and get a nice safe place to pass into for a score on the following turn. Kickoff Return isn't all that, but it does make sure that you can get the ball either out of blitzing range or safely into the pocket.

I'm not sure I follow all the steps in the four turn cage - I understand Turn 1 is get the ball to the Thrower and drop out of blitzing range - do you build a cage near the LOS on Turn 1 that the Thrower can run into on Turn 2? or do you build the cage on turn 2 when the Thrower runs up? I assume running the Catcher in deep also happens on Turn 1 to draw off pressure? (And if he isn't covered, you throw to him for a 2 turner). I don't understand what happen on Turns 3 and 4 - are you building a cage downfield on Turn 3 into which you throw the ball to a Catcher, and then score on Turn 4? I'd be grateful if you clarified.

Ullis · Post by **Ullis** » Fri Aug 07, 2009 6:23 am

Big-Bad-Bear wrote:[I think ag 4 catcher will be getting leap, even though I feel its pushing his luck to not give him block as soon as possible.

I really don't see what you'd do with the Leap catcher. Even with AG4 he'll only succeed on 3+. And even if he succeeds and doesn't burn a reroll, then what? I don't see any good defensive applications for him with ST2 and no other skills and it won't help much on offence (and which doesn't seem to be a big problem for you) either. Take Block or Wrestle first.

Jural · Post by **Jural** » Fri Aug 07, 2009 6:29 am

Leap puts tackle zone on ball or ball carrier. The opponent's blitz is now almost guaranteed to be used in his backfield, not in the wides or to help advance a cage.

For humans, that's often enough to stall out a drive or stop it altogether... one turn of no caging.

mattgslater · Post by **mattgslater** » Fri Aug 07, 2009 12:22 pm

Gimli wrote:I'm not sure I follow all the steps in the four turn cage...

You've mostly got it.

Turn 1: bust hole, start building cage in opposing backfield, get ball deep in own backfield out of blitzing range.

Turn 1 or 2: run up safety valve.

Turn 2: Throw to cage, either score (2-turner) or push forward, OSPT. With MA 6-8, plus two GFIs, you have to cover just 3-5 squares in the opponent's backfield by caging and marching. Voila, four-turner: essentially you save 1-3 turns on an Orc cage, but you need to save them 'cause you're AV8 and will occasionally need a score/reset to maintain health.

Big-Bad-Bear · Post by **Big-Bad-Bear** » Fri Aug 07, 2009 2:22 pm

Ullis wrote:
Big-Bad-Bear wrote:[I think ag 4 catcher will be getting leap, even though I feel its pushing his luck to not give him block as soon as possible.
I really don't see what you'd do with the Leap catcher. Even with AG4 he'll only succeed on 3+. And even if he succeeds and doesn't burn a reroll, then what? I don't see any good defensive applications for him with ST2 and no other skills and it won't help much on offence (and which doesn't seem to be a big problem for you) either. Take Block or Wrestle first.

It's quite simple: He has no defensive application! This is my second Catcher and he is being built purely for offensive reasons. I'd like this guy to be the one in my two-three turn cage, or run loose on the opposite side as a decoy threat, while using my block/dodge/av8/future dauntless catcher on defense as another blitzer.

In any event I believe this team will be put aside after this season as I just bought and have begun painting a Nurgle team (pictures forthcoming). As much as I enjoy them I wouldn't mind playing a more difficult team. But who knows, a championship victory might keep them going. I'll keep you guys posted when playoffs start!

Gimli · Post by **Gimli** » Sat Aug 08, 2009 6:15 am

mattgslater wrote:
Gimli wrote:I'm not sure I follow all the steps in the four turn cage...
You've mostly got it.

Turn 1: bust hole, start building cage in opposing backfield, get ball deep in own backfield out of blitzing range.

Turn 1 or 2: run up safety valve.

Turn 2: Throw to cage, either score (2-turner) or push forward, OSPT. With MA 6-8, plus two GFIs, you have to cover just 3-5 squares in the opponent's backfield by caging and marching. Voila, four-turner: essentially you save 1-3 turns on an Orc cage, but you need to save them 'cause you're AV8 and will occasionally need a score/reset to maintain health.

Thx Mattgslater - your advice is very helpful. I think the step I'm having trouble with is leaving the Thrower deep on Turn 1 out of Blitzing range. I'm used to playing Dwarves so my instinct is to run him up to the LOS, and put him in a little cover, the idea being he can be more of a threat on Turn 2. However, so far the most common result is that the other team busts a hole in the cover and then blitzes the Thrower - turnover - defensive TD.

What does OSPT stand for?