Skills and the order to take them in? - Orcs at Tr 115

[mattgslater]

Postseasons? 14. In-season elimination tournaments? 5, including 4 rookie progression tournaments (under 16 coaches). Sanctioned BB tournaments? 0. Games with and against teams with 0-6 skills? No clue (more than 500, less than 5000). But I know the format, I've listened to you guys talk about tournament team design for about 4 years, and read reports and blurbs on a few dozen tournaments, and I'm pretty sure I know how tournament coaches think. I certainly understand the skill selection process that so many seem to argue for ("maximal theoretic value right away with every skill") and I'm consistently stunned at the lack of regard y'all seem to put into scheme, especially on a toolbox team like Orcs. Not to mention how narrowly you construe scheme and positioning.

Frankly, Joe, I have no idea how you think that positioning skills work only once per drive, or don't work when you're on offense, or how you think that somehow turn 2 happens in the absence of turn 1. Side Step is a cage-maker, a cage-breaker, a coverage skill, a pass-rush skill, and a ball-protection skill. It responds well to mass-selection, or makes a great complement to any other form of position control, like massed-up ST4/5 players with a little Guard. It's the thnead of Blood Bowl.

[Joemanji]

I have every respect for Side Step. I may even love it. I was very, very close to going to tournament with 2 SS Mummies. In the end I gave them both Block (and won the tournament).

Okay, let's break it down. We are both guilty of arguing around the question here, which is:

Should your game 2 double be Block (Troll) or Side Step (Blitzer)?

Block on the Troll here is just so much more effective IMO. Without it the Troll is a liability. You have to pretty much never use him, other than as a roadblock. In fact, many great Orc coaches I have spoken to say if you can't get him Block, don't take him. With Block, he can ramage around the pitch, getting in the way and (if you are lucky) eating several opposing players. A Block big guy is frightening. Side Step is just good.

FRIGHTENING versus good.

[mattgslater]

Block on the Troll as #2 and SS on the Blitzer as #5? OK, I could see that. I do agree that Block makes the Troll a lot more actively useful, though I stop somewhere short of "frightening". In that case, I'd probably be tempted to take the Guard Blitzer first, the Guard BOB third, a Block or Stand Firm BOB 4th and the Frenzy Blitzer 6th, and after Match 5, either put the Troll on the unsupported end (right end in my diagram on the last page) of the line, or backing the line on the left side, where I have the rookie BOB.

Sorry about that, Joe. I'm just tired of hearing the "SS is best on Turn 1" argument, which is full of bull, but somehow comes up every time I drop a Side-Step-dependent setup diagram.

[Darkson]

I'd much rather face a Side Step Blitzer than a Block Troll.

[Evil Git]

while i'm enjoying matt and joe's discussion on the merits of sidestep and block as the second skill i think you both need to re-read the first post again. all the skills are picked before the tournament starts and not one after each round so it's pointless trying to figure out which skill would be better to be picked after game 2

other than that little point though the discussion's been really good and i can see the benefits of both. i'd always go with the block big guy though and as much guard as i can get away with...

[mattgslater]

I'd much rather face a Side Step Blitzer than a Block Troll.

A bit of a fallacy, no? I mean, you're facing a Blitzer and a Troll either way.

[Darkson]

Yes, but I'd rather face a Side-stepping Blitzer and blockless-troll, than a side-stepless Blitzer and a Block troll.

I just don't find one side-stepper that scary, whereas a (semi-)reliable BG is something to worry about.

[DoubleSkulls]

My intention is to take the following skills in this order:
1- Thrower (Block) - this is with a view to protecting him as a ball carrier
2 - Troll (Block) - to strengthen my LOS and increase overall bash potential
3 - BOB ( Guard) - to strengthen my LOS and use in a cage
4 - Blitzer (Tackle) - LRB 6 at TR115 should attract a lot of fast, agile teams - hopefully this will help against them
5 - Blitzer (Dodge) - Good opportunity to try a blodger really
6 - BOB (Block) - bit of an experiment to increase bash potential

Any comments or suggestions will be very gratefully received team.

Many thanks in anticipation.

Danny

IMO

#1 Guard BOB
#2 Block Troll
#3 Guard BOB
#4 Guard BOB
#5 Dodge Thrower (or maybe sure feet)
#6 Tackle or Frenzy Blitzer

3 Guarding BOBs, a Dodge sure hands ball carrier and a Block troll. I reckon that would do pretty well. You need one tackle or frenzy IMO. If you really want you could give Guard to a Blitzer instead, but IMO this is less effective than on the BOBs.

I'd even be tempted to ignore the 2nd double and just give the last BOB guard too.

Sidestep Blitzer vs Block Troll? No contest imo. Sidestep just isn't as good for most people as it is for Matt. IMO he overrates positional skills quite a lot. Its not that they aren't good, its just I find there are better options in the first couple of skills for most players.

[Carnis]

#1 Guard BOB
#2 Block Troll
#3 Guard BOB
#4 Guard BOB
#5 Dodge Thrower (or maybe sure feet)
#6 Tackle or Frenzy Blitzer

Sidestep Blitzer vs Block Troll? No contest imo. Sidestep just isn't as good for most people as it is for Matt. IMO he overrates positional skills quite a lot. Its not that they aren't good, its just I find there are better options in the first couple of skills for most players.

Pretty much my view of this as well. Block Troll, Frenzy Blitzer, 4x Guard (either 3+1 BOB/Blitzer or 3+1 Blitzer/BOB).

[DeeTee]

So, in the end I went for this:

1 - Guard - Blitzer
2 - Block - Troll
3 - Guard - BOB
4 - Frenzy - Blitzer
5 - Guard - BOB
6 - Guard - BOB

I came away with a 2-1-3 record. Not quite the 2-2-2 I was aiming for but I learnt loads. This was the first time I have ever played with Frenzy and will defintely try it again. Block on the Troll was great and the Guards all helped immensely.

The 3 games I lsot were simply against better coaches - thoroughly enjoyable games all.

Thanks to everyone for all your help.

Muchly appreciated.

Danny