Starting Wood Elf advice

[Jural]

Advice for a beginning coach on taking wood elves: Grow a pair and switch to something respectable.... Leave the cheese to the little engines who can't....

Otherwise, ... *shrug*....

Ha! I saw Digger had responded to an Elf question and I knew something good was coming

But to be honest, I thought you would just answer the title of the post:

Q: Starting Wood Elf advice
A: Don't do it.

[Carnis]

Advice for a beginning coach on taking wood elves: Grow a pair and switch to something respectable.... Leave the cheese to the little engines who can't....

Least our league experience time after again is, that the cheesy teams are indeed the teams that reduce your opponents team to dust, not the teams that rely on series of unreliable agility rolls, passes and undermanned assaults vs brick walls.

[Digger Goreman]

In all light-heartedness: I love you guys! Got a good chuckle off the responses....

Carnis.... Not sure how to take that.... The part about unreliable rolls screams at me, "can't be serious!", but when paired with the serious response about (assuming here) block/guard/high AV walls... well, yeah, that IS a reasonable comeback....

In totally serious & moderate mode:
The dichotomy of Blood Bowl has been misnomered as Finesse vs Bash, when those are just symptoms of the real problem. The real problem is unopposed/nearly sure agility rolls. When a "game" becomes a spectator affair of waiting for your opponent to fail a 1 in 36 chance, while massing TDs, SPPs and skills... it becomes quite un-enjoyable. The responses are limited: get behind in the skill up part of the game, as AG4 teams/players mass more agility/avoidance skills while you invest in Tackle/Diving Tackle at the expense of basic skills, or attempt to pile drive the ubiquitously slippery AG4s into oblivion. Given that only a spammed (imo, only, "broken") team like Dwarves have starting access to that much tackle, one might feel compelled to play a "statistically sure" anti-team vs the "statistically sure" AG4 team....

Pre-journeyman LRB, you had this phenomenon of elves generally re-starting a team if gullible enough to go toe to toe with higher AV teams or, more likely, playing "powder-puff" ball with other elf teams to skill up quickly.... Now, with journeyman rules, they don't even have to do that! An elf player can readily take 11 linemen, let the 8 "best" in SPP advance even more quickly, while riding the journeyman rules to easier league victories.

The real bottom line on elves, gutter runners, any AG4+ player, is the un-challenged agility roll. While a 2d6, unskilled block could go wrong one-third of the time, a simple roll of 2-6 (1 in 6 failure, 1 in 36 with dodge/reroll) to slip away and freely roam detracts from BB being a game.

Intentionally not framing the following as opposed to the above, but realistically presenting it as another "problem" for the game: high armor values and, more-so, spamming of skills.... Armor value is simply put: the higher, the more enduring the piece... and the longer it statistically stays a thorn in your side and probably leads to you being man/men down in the long run. The "spamming" of starting skills AND stats-above-average are a severe detriment to the game. The kings of crap and crud are added stats: AG4+, ST4+, MA7+, AV9+ in multiples. They give intrinsic, mass advantages to teams... with AG4+ actually enabling a team to reliably score TDs with only 2 players! Single uber-stats are bad enough, but add a couple together and you get further out of hand: AG4+ combined with MA7+; ST4+ combined with AV9+....

On the spamming of skills side, the two biggest offenders are Block and Dodge: ubiquitous starting access to multiples of one, or both, inhibits game play almost as much as sitting back and watching the AG kings play the game by themselves.... Throw in a boatload of guard and/or sidestepping, later, and the "fun" is quite one-sided.

The multiple "transgressions" of the above is where this gamer would draw the line: all elves, all dwarves, khemri, slann, norse, amazons, the need to curb Orcs and possibly straight Undead....

If we enjoyed nothing but total chaos, we wouldn't be gamers... or else we'd just play games like Fluxx and Abduction.... On the other end of the spectrum, the surest "game" is Chess... and about as exciting as sloth mimicry.... And this is the greatest "sin" of over-average stats and beginning spamming of skills (and, really, stat-upgrades and intentional spamming of skills later in league play): it pushes the "game" to a more sure, chess-like, predictable environment... AND, your soon to be bored and suffering opponent knows this all to well, OR the noob will soon find out....

These are the problems... after 20+ years... we still await a solution....

[mattgslater]

I'm not quite with either of you. I have a few problems with the balance of BB too, but really you're just describing the two basic approaches to the game and the tools used to get there. My problem with BB balance is really with 3 teams: Dwarfs, Wood Elves and Khemri. Khemri are just categorically broken: there's no way to balance a ST3 team with 4 ST5 players: it'll either be dominant or underpowered no matter what you do. Dwarfs are the anti-cheese cheese, and that's never a good sign, but game-to-game they're manageable. Wood Elves are broken because they're all MA7/AG4 and the Journeyman rules give them enough insulation to account for AV7 given their ability to play man-down. There are a few other teams that are better than the rest (Orcs, Chaos Dwarfs, Undead, Skaven, Amazons), but all of these teams have clear counters or disadvantages that can be capitalized on (so for that matter do Dwarfs... but they're still anticheese, which is cheesy in itself).

The problem isn't all AG4, or even all elves. Want to beat Skaven? Smack on the schmoes to force the GRs into long routes and 3d blocks. Want to beat Dark Elves? Do a good job maintaining your net, inflict a little damage and don't let yourself go man-down. Want to beat High Elves? Target the Catchers and again do a good job maintaining your net. Want to beat Pro Elves? Grind the line to expose the Catchers, then neutralize them.

Want to beat Wood Elves? No good advice. Get lucky. Play well. Control the ball, keep the game going slowly, hope your opponent rolls at least his fair share of 1s or makes some kind of mistake, or that you take out both WDs and a couple other guys. It can totally be done, but you can never rely on even a good plan to do it. You can hurt them, but unlike Skaven or High Elves, you won't get them under control that way unless you pull off a total bloodbath. You can try to beat them with scheme, but they have Leapers, so all you're really doing is making them roll dice. Anyone on the team can score in 2 turns off the base defense without GFI'ing in the first turn, so pinning down or eliminating key players (well, eliminating: you can't pin a WD) is only helpful because their "key players" are so ungodly cheesy, with the best statline in the game, the top two skills and a solid #3. Sure, they have cost issues, which used to be a big deal: in the old days, losing 3 guys was a sign that you were going to lose your next game most likely. But now that nobody buys FF and you can't be forced to start a game down men, Woodies are without effective disadvantages.

[Carnis]

Want to beat Wood Elves? No good advice. Get lucky. Play well. Control the ball, keep the game going slowly, hope your opponent rolls at least his fair share of 1s or makes some kind of mistake, or that you take out both WDs and a couple other guys.

Having reliable beaten wood elves time and again (>70% of the time) with a side, that spams the mentioned BLOCK skill, norse (which I now believe to be the ultimate wood-elf hunting side). I have to disagree.

Your favourite inducement is a bribe, which you use on a foul ejection, if your fouler has DP. You always attack first, to whittle down his players before his own offence (you won't ever stop a 11vs11 wood elf score reliably). Your #1 weapon of choice is a killer-blitzer with MB&piling on for the armor & injury roll & block, tackle, frenzy, juggernaut for the block roll for about 58% of knockdowns causing KO++ and about 90% or more of your blocks causing knockdowns. Your #2 weapon of choice is a dirty player and a lot of friendly assists, which can get up to 55% chance of removing a pointy eared foe (and a 30.5% chance of removing your DP).

Your offence, you attack with a surehands ballcarrier (cancels strip ball) cage cornered with guards (he'll need S4 to get 1 die on you) (boring, but necessary due to leap). If he has S4, you will need 4 guards or a S4 sure hands ballcarrier, which is a whee bit lame..

Code: Select all

Thrower=TT, Guard=GG, Liner=LL
Either in the middle:
GG -- LL
-- TT --
LL -- GG
or at the sideline, if no frenzy or two closeby leaps:
LL -- |
-- -- |
GG TT |
-- -- |
LL -- |

You block the LOS peons (pref with mighty blow&piling on). Then you blitz a target, who does not have fend with your killer (Norse berserker with MB&PO&Tackle is perfect for this) 58% chance of knockout++, if you manage to knock down (use a reroll, if you don't). You fell the tree from the LOS (any S5 big guy +2 assists works, but the snowtroll is the best (frenzy+claws). With your assists, be sure to start next to the tree, so that you can leave after the tree has fallen, so if he manages the 4+ to stand up you won't have to dodge on the next turn. If the tree takes root, then you dodge away, even with a troll.

Grind the elves for 8 turns. If you get a stun, and not a knockout, then wait one turn, surround the player and gangfoul him (with your cage, preferably). If you by this way manage to get a 3 or more player advantage, your subsequent blitzes (with piling on) need to reroll the injury roll even, if you roll a knockout (you want CAS for your next half, not KO, hence stuns are almost as good as KOs now). You must also tie down ALL his players that are in range, since you are men ahead. If you have a player advantage, you keep on fouling until you run out of DPs, and if it's the 2nd half then you just keep fouling regardless.

In T8 after 1-0 score, set up so that the 1turner is as unreliable as possible, force a long pass with a deep kick & defend your endzone with 2 TZ dodges.

Defence can be hard if you don't have a killer-side and he's not outnumbered, but normally he will be (you can easily develop a killerteam that has multiples of DP and MB&PO&BLOCK&TACKLE, and STILL get inducements vs the very very expensive wood elf team). Tie down all his players, every turn. Force all of them to dodge (against tackle, preferably), or take 2die against blocks. Whittle down his players, AV7 is so frail, you will have no problems. IF you can get a player in range of his ballcarrier, try to get the blitz with rerolls (frenzy) and wrestle/tackle (he WILL have blodge). Ulfwerener is perfect for this. He may score, but being undermanned you will be able to force him to score quick (or not score at all), and run a 2-1 win with the remaining 5-7 turns of offence.

The same works reliably enough with orcs, undead, dwarves, chaos dwarves and any side with access to 2-6 starting roster blocks & S skills.

Last game vs woodies I did manage an impressive 11-0 CAS record (2 from fouls, 11 CAS being the new local club record), breaking all but one knocked out lineman and his 2nd wardancer, who did manage to score a goal 4vs11 on his own offence. Sadly only 3 permanent injuries, 1 of which was healed ( a kill on his oneturner ).

Digger Goreman wrote:

The real bottom line on elves, gutter runners, any AG4+ player, is the un-challenged agility roll. While a 2d6, unskilled block could go wrong one-third of the time, a simple roll of 2-6 (1 in 6 failure, 1 in 36 with dodge/reroll) to slip away and freely roam detracts from BB being a game.

You mean a 2d6 block could go wrong one-ninth of the time (1/3*1/3 or 1/9 failure, 1/6*1/6 or 1/36 with block, (1/3*1/3)^2, or 1/81 with a reroll and (1/6*1/6)^2 or 1/1296 with block and a reroll).

1/1296 chance of the action backfiring, when a killer starts killing, that's what makes me sick.

[Wanchor]

More Whinebowl, ugh. Good post, Carnis.

We had a newcomer Wood Elf team in the league this season and he whooped everybody until the playoffs, when he was blown apart 5 - 2 by a Skaven team. More than his players' ability to roll 2's and keep going, he was a good coach and few other coaches knew how to handle his team, or didn't have the foresight to build a few players up to be capable of handling them.

[mattgslater]

Carnis's answers to Wood Elves are bang-on. I'm not saying there aren't ways to do it. That's not the point: the same strategies work against all speed teams to one extent or another. The point is that Woodies are one of those big-ups/big-downs teams which are hard to balance, and if you use them right you can build a very-hard-to-stop team that will always have a chance against any opponent, no matter how well the opponent plays, even if one of the standard anti-speed techniques pans out. So if you're newish to the game and want to build agility-team experience, there's a crutch team.

[Jural]

I for one think Blood Bowl is just too reliable at high TV anyway. More turns go to the 11th man, more successes, you are really just playing to see who's dice are hotter... assuming equal coaching skill and good team development.

At low TV, risk managment is a bigger part of the game (and players who ignore it and get lucky can really pound the opponent!) I have a preference for those games- but I also love the tactical evolution that side step, fend, stand firm, grab, leap, and diving tackle bring to the game (all the space skills.)

I have toyed around with a way to make Blood Bowl more to my liking at high TV's... and I came up with re-rolls being removed from the game and re-roll counters allowing you to just keep playing on in your turn after absorbing the bad roll. But then you have throwers dumping the ball downfield to empty space, a re-roll being used, and a catcher walking over and picking up the ball... so man marking becomes useless... Someday I want to fix that problem and try the games again, they were fun.

[Digger Goreman]

Hmmmm: put forth a reasoned analysis of shortcomings and it's "whine bowl", vs playing with fairies that succeed on most tasks with a 2+ and that's "straight-up gangsta... aight?!"

Whatever, little Timmy... whatever....

[JMGraham]

2 games in, now. I got 1 3-2 win over Lizardmen, and one 1-2 loss to Orcs. I have two Line-elfs sitting out next game, but otherwise no lasting injuries or deaths.

I started with 2 Wardancers, a Thrower, 8 Line-elves, 2 RR, and the base 5 FF our league starts with. I bought an Apothecary, and have another 50 gold in my treasury.

One line-elf got an agility boost and currently has 10 SPP - my plan with this one is to get leap, and then dodge with this one once I skill up again. This should be a player who can get over the opposing line quickly, and get deep into the opponent's half.

I also rolled a double on one of my Wardancers. Here, I'm torn. This early, juggernaut seems like a waste, though it might be nice to counter tackle. Grab also seems nice, as it would give me a chance to toss the ball carrier out of a cage if I leap in. I'm also considering ignoring the double and select strip ball to start building my sacker. Any thoughts on this?

So far, the other teams in the league consist of:
Lizards, Orcs, Dwarfs, Amazons, Chaos Pact, and possibly Vampires and/or another Orc team.

Thanks,
Jim

[stormmaster1]

mighty blow is great on wardancers as they use the majority of the blitzes

[bjorn9486]

I also rolled a double on one of my Wardancers. Here, I'm torn. This early, juggernaut seems like a waste, though it might be nice to counter tackle. Grab also seems nice, as it would give me a chance to toss the ball carrier out of a cage if I leap in. I'm also considering ignoring the double and select strip ball to start building my sacker. Any thoughts on this?

Strip Ball works good on Wardancers

I've never played a Woodie team, but maybe go Guard. You could just this guy into a cage and then have your other Wardancer blitz him for hopefully 2 dice your choice block, assuming you negate the other assists.

[Carnis]

I've never played a Woodie team, but maybe go Guard. You could just this guy into a cage and then have your other Wardancer blitz him for hopefully 2 dice your choice block, assuming you negate the other assists.

That's a huge gamble (3+ x2), on an already diceheavy team. I'd consider jugs/guard/mb, but have no clear favourite for sure.

[JMGraham]

Another thought is Nerves of Steel. It would be nice to have a pass receiver who could catch even when marked, and then dodge/leap out. However, I could see such a player being a SPP hog.

Is it fairly common to ignore doubles with some positionals, and just stick with standard development? I feel a bit bad by doing so, but if it served the best interest of the team...

Jim

[Jural]

Strip Ball is just awesome on a Wardancer.


Mighty Blow is nice. Guard is sneaky, as this player will very often be marked, and you can use this to get a 2 die block... but it's not worth it. Fend is underrated, and both GRab and Juggernaut give you some counter skills which will let the Wardancer shine at high TV...

Side Step is frankly better than all of those though... A Side Step Wardancer is probably the most annoying one advance piece in the game

So Side Step or Strip Ball are really the only first two choices for my Wardancers, barring a stat increase (+MA, +AG, or +STR please.)