Lineorc rolls [6:4] (was: S5 Black Orc - Guard or Block?)

[Darkson]

I advise against putting your linemen on the LOS (and seeing as he doesn't have a troll, that's pretty difficult to put on the LOS anyway) - you've got the ST advantage over most teams - make use of it.

[DoubleSkulls]

A lot depends on format. If you are in Cyanide and TV minimisation is crucial then MA might not be worth it. However in normal league play I think its the best choice. Get him up to 16 SPPs quick and take Wrestle, then 31 SPPs tackle.

[Piousman]

This is a regular league, and I am already the 2nd highest TV team (at 147). Most of my peers are still hovering near 110 (mostly due to massive casualties).

I really am tempted by the M+, but I plan on eventually getting a Troll (have not because I want to keep my TV lower for now, and with a S5 BoB I did not feel the need for the extra Strength).

I am afraid that I will invest the M+ in him and in a few games he will start to warm up the bench (already have a Gobbo doing that). Still, he could easily develp into a spare Blitzer, and I don't think Orcs ever have enought M6 guys on their team.

DP is the skill that will probably get him into the game if I think I cannot get the numerical advantage though regular blocking (although I am sufficiently risk adverse that I rarely foul myself - unless the reff has been gotten).

Piousman

[DoubleSkulls]

I normally play both throwers on offence and two line orcs on defence. So they aren't so much bench warmers as special team Too much of a bench is a bad idea, so I wouldn't have more than the 11, 2 line orcs and a gobbo. Unless the league is very heavy with Claw laden Chaos teams that should be enough.

I'd get the troll sooner rather than later too.

[stashman]

Take +AV

[Craigtw]

I would advise against kick as on defense with Orcs you should want 2 Linos and a Troll on LOS, 4 BOB and 4 Blitzers in the backfield, thus leaving your kick man without anywhere to go...

Why would you want the Black Orcs in the backfield?

@Piousman - if you have never tried Kick, then I would recommend it - it is a very useful skill, one that I thought was useless until I started using it myself.

[stashman]

Why not Black Orc on LOS?

It depends on the opponents team. Both lineorcs and BO have AV9 so just let them hit the lineorcs in the begining. Opens up where to put the BO after opponents first turn.

And if its a strength team, they will probably bash out the BO with more strength anyway.

Against weak teams I would put 4 black orcs and the troll on LOS

[Craigtw]

Why not Black Orc on LOS?

It depends on the opponents team. Both lineorcs and BO have AV9 so just let them hit the lineorcs in the begining. Opens up where to put the BO after opponents first turn.

Which means that your opponent has easier hits on your lineorcs, possibly puttine some off the field or stunning them. Also, the Black Orcs then need a turn to reposition, with only one being able to blitz, if you should so choose.

Black Orcs are road blocks and IMO should be right up on the line in the thick of the fight where their Strength can be put to the best use, otherwise the other team is going to railroad you.

[Funksultan]

Well, Stashman's "take +AV" wasn't very verbose, but I gotta agree.

Against sufficiently bashy teams, you should always just have 3 players on the LOS. No matter how big and puffy your guys are, a good bashy team (one that can load the block and guard) will always get at least 2d blocks on everyone on your los, and subject you to potential pain.

A key ability for all coaches is learning to mitigate this risk. Putting journeymen or low utility players on the line. If you don't have any of those, you want to put the players that have the highest resistance to getting knocked down, or hurt.

AV 10 takes away half of the (non claw/MB) armor rolls that could penetrate your armor.

I say go for +AV. He'll stay alive on the line longer, and that saves ya in the long run.

(BOBs on the line? Nahhhhh, they will still find a way to get 2d blocks on em, and you're just risking a more expensive model instead of a cheaper one)

[Darkson]

Which means that your opponent has easier hits on your lineorcs, possibly puttine some off the field or stunning them. Also, the Black Orcs then need a turn to reposition, with only one being able to blitz, if you should so choose.

Black Orcs are road blocks and IMO should be right up on the line in the thick of the fight where their Strength can be put to the best use, otherwise the other team is going to railroad you.

+1 - with MA4 positioning them in the backfield is often a "waste" of 2 (or more) turns of their ST.

[Arklite]

Way I see it I’d much rather commit my BOB's to the line of scrimmage along with a troll (if you have one that is). sure you're opponent will find ways to get 2D blocks on them a fair bit of the time, but consider how much effort your opponent is putting in to do that the only teams really able to make 2D blocks against them without spews of guard are teams like lizardmen, ogres or the undead rosters and their S5 players and even then I’d much rather play up front. Every additional player your opponent uses to knock you down is a player tied up in my opinion. It leaves more of your team (the blitzers for example) free to attack his wide zones where, if he has committed to taking down the black orcs and possible troll, he'll be weaker.

I’d much rather keep them on the line where I know they can bog the opponent down and let my more mobile blitzers do the headhunting.

Besides, any blocker he fails to put down is a free block for you when its your turn. Soon enough you'll have your block/MiB on the black orcs and (if you've bought one) a guard Troll to make anyone looking for a fair fight being carried off to the KO/injury boxes with their teeth shoved out their ears

[Funksultan]

Way I see it I’d much rather commit my BOB's to the line of scrimmage along with a troll (if you have one that is). sure you're opponent will find ways to get 2D blocks on them a fair bit of the time, but consider how much effort your opponent is putting in to do that the only teams really able to make 2D blocks against them without spews of guard are teams like lizardmen, ogres or the undead rosters and their S5 players and even then I’d much rather play up front. Every additional player your opponent uses to knock you down is a player tied up in my opinion. It leaves more of your team (the blitzers for example) free to attack his wide zones where, if he has committed to taking down the black orcs and possible troll, he'll be weaker.

This logic as a point, but I suppose it depends what caliber of coaches you're used to playing against.

Rookie coaches will fall into this trap often (imho). They will bring people up from the line and dedicate too much resource to blocking those big 3.

I would say most quality coaches, who are playing a bashy team vs you would watch your setup, and then allocate just enough people to the line to ensure they get their 2d blocks on your front line, using only 3 (block) actions. Once the orcs are down or repositioned, any extra players they needed for guard/assist will be walking away through the hole to mark important players of yours, or start forming a cage. These coaches only use 3 blocks, to knock down 3 of your very expensive players.

Stacking the line with high str makes sense, but against a good, bashy coach? I think it'd be a waste (and against claw people, potentially an expensive shift of TV left on the field).

[Craigtw]

Rookie coaches will fall into this trap often (imho). They will bring people up from the line and dedicate too much resource to blocking those big 3.

Sorry, am I missing something? Why only 3? Wouldn't it be 5? (4 black orcs and 1 troll).

This is MUCH harder to get all the 2D blocks on!

[Arklite]

definently. I would say the same thing for lizardmen really, make real use of all that S4/5 on defense and shove 5 peices on the line, bog your opponent into a propa fight!

[Funksultan]

Sorry, am I missing something? Why only 3? Wouldn't it be 5? (4 black orcs and 1 troll).

This is MUCH harder to get all the 2D blocks on!

The numbers don't matter much to the top bashy teams (orcs, dwarves, chaos, lizardmen, etc).

Any line you can devise, they will find a way to knock it down/back reliably. Sure, they may have a bad roll/reroll stop their bashfest cold, but in the long run, these teams are going to pummel your line, cause CAS, and leave you undermanned.

There are lots of threads about "Stacking the line" and I just don't see it done against bashy teams.

Don't get me wrong, against non-bashys? Go for it, what are the Skaven gonna do about it? *grin*

Tell ya what... you and I play the same orc team, and you stack the line, and I'll toss ya 3 lineorcs, and over the course of a league's worth of play, lemme know what ya think about stacking the line when you're kicking...