Underworld strategy advice - please help

[mattgslater]

An off-the-wall idea I had would be to give Guard to a 2-Heads Gobbo on a double. He could get anywhere to deliver a Guard assist (before his untimely death).

Bwahahahaha. That makes me want to run an Underworld team as my #2 team next season.

[Smeborg]

A partner in crime in our league ran an Underworld team last season. He went the can-opener route on the 3 ST players. The team was vicious (more vicious than a Skaven team), but ran out of puff as players were lost to death and retirement.

For me the challenge is to somehow maintain this entertaining form of underdog viciousness, while helping to keep players alive, and without neglecting ball movement and ball hunting completely. I guess a possibility would be:

W-Troll: Claw, Guard
S-Vermin: M-Blow, Claw, Tackle
Throwers: Block, X-Arms
Linerats: Wrestle, Horns, Tackle

3 can openers for the LoS, with a Linerat on each flank available for a deep Blitz. I'm still unsure about Guard though - maybe my 2-Heads, Guard Gobbo idea is not bad, after all. A 2-Heads, Sneaky-Git Gobbo might not be bad, as well (to team up with a Wrestle, Horns Linerat).

[mattgslater]

I'm not sure you have to decide, but I say that with extremely limited Underworld experience. This team looks like it has a built-in answer to the pressure-cooker in the TD machine, and good positioning will let you make some nasty blocks and mostly end up out of TZs, no? Well, except foul-me guy.

Hey, what kind of stats do y'all keep? What fraction of your turns do your Goblins blow and why? How many TRRs does it take to play effectively. How surgical are you able to be as a hunter-killer type? I mean, the answer to speed is to play scary and get enough numerical advantage to make up for the ST-gap, right? And against bash, generally light killer teams win by going for the joints: that's what I do and see with the various elves, plus Gobs and Halflings. It also seems like a team that would get disproportionate mileage out of a good matchup game: is this right?

[Smeborg]

Matt - I have some experience of playing all-Hobgoblin teams, and they are surprisingly resourceful. The Underworld are similar, but on the evidence of half a dozen games (for and against) possibly much better - Hobgoblins on speed. You have to be adept at managing a team that can disappear into the dugout at the rate of one or two players a turn, so local superiority is the order of the day, combined with aggressive ball hunting and rapid ball movement. This requires a certain cocky fearlessness on the part of the coach - a very Underworld Creepers mindset! If a coach is easily discouraged by injuries and a rapidly shrinking roster, then Underworld is not for them.

I played a team not dissimilar in shape to the Underworld last season, which was an Orc team with no Trolls, no Black Orcs, and 4 Gobbos on the roster. The Gobbos were unpredictable, but on the whole rather good - they play passively for much of the turn, but spring to life in an aggressive "dynamite" role for the last action or two. I am guessing that mutant Gobbos would be even better at this. Of course they are equally good at dying, too!

The team as a whole looks excellent to me - they feel no worse than some teams that are considered "tier 1". They have some superb Skaven Stars (Fezglitch, Skitter, Glart). Keeping rostered players alive (and hence retaining SPPs) looks like the main problem. This is a necesary and appealing balancing feature (for those of us who like a challenge!). I suspect longer term development will be quite unbalanced (because of deaths and retirements).

For coaches who need a carrot, Underworld are the quickest and easiest team to get to Swiss Army knife status (multiple can openers)!

[Ullis]

I've been planning to take Guard on doubles, if I ever got one, on a goblin too. Building one up as 2-heads (the first skill if no doubles), Wrestle (on doubles) and Horns is a pipe dream as I don't think I have 31 SPP's on all my goblins combined.

The team is very fragile but you save your players (especially the gobbos) by killing the other team first and deny them the blocks that way. I guess the norse team has to go the same route against bashy teams too, right? For that to happen you need the can openers as you can never hope to outstrength the other team as if you plan on holding a line, you almost certainly need at least one goblin for the job.

[Ullis]

Hey, what kind of stats do y'all keep? What fraction of your turns do your Goblins blow and why? How many TRRs does it take to play effectively. How surgical are you able to be as a hunter-killer type?

My team in MBBL is at 5-5-7 (W-T-L) with the last game ending in ties. There's two gems hidden there: a 3-0 win against dwarves and a 5-0 against Lizardmen. I outcassed the other team heavily right from the start in both games. In both of those games I had the troll with Claws and a MB+Claws blitzer.

The goblins hardly ever turn me over these days but it used to happen very frequently. I find myself having to start the turn with either a goblin dodging or having to block with the troll quite frequently and Two Heads on the goblins is such a great blessing there (and Block on the troll helps a lot too). I also have two 2-headed rats now and they open up lots of opportunities too with MA7.

I started with 4 rerolls and at start I needed all of them badly but now I find myself using them to reroll blocks with my killer blitzer. I'm pretty sure I'd manage with 3 quite ok.

[cyagen]

Smeborg summed it up perfectly, I only want to say that I a doubtful of guard on Gobos since it means letting your opponent block him next turn. Dodging away is the best strategy with these guys. No one except the Troll or the Blitzers should stay in contact with your opponent, until you zerg his cage.

[Leipziger]

[

Hey, what kind of stats do y'all keep? What fraction of your turns do your Goblins blow and why? How many TRRs does it take to play effectively. How surgical are you able to be as a hunter-killer type?

For my underworld, they went P15 W3 (1 walkover) D1 L11 F16 Cas for 29 Cas against 49
In the current Vet's league, they've drawn 2, lost 1 F3 A4 Cas 8-12.

They currently play with 4 RR which is a godsend

My team development was slightly hindered early on by a schoolboy error in team design. I originally opted not to take an apo, figuring that he would easy enough to buy. However, in Game 1, the troll died and failed his regen roll It took me three or four games to afford another one (In total he died about 5 times that season, but regen was more successful later in the season...).

The other thing that stymied me a little is that there were a lot of very good coaches handing me beatings with stronger teams (Podfrey/Bum Monkey, Valen etc). The team were usually competitive for most of each game, but the pattern was usually:

Step 1:
Receive ball and score a TD

Step 2:
Concede a TD

Step 3:
Watch as players disappear into injured box and the opposition score a second TD to secure the win.

Steps 1 and 2 are interchangeable

[mattgslater]

Ever track turnover stats? Figure out who's ending your turns and blowing your TRRs? It can be very revealing if your problem is in some seemingly-small risk-management aspect. I remember in my second and third seasons I learned an awful lot about BOB management by just tracking who uses my TRRs and how, who gets hurt and who acts when in my turn. I've kind of gotten sloppy with it since.

[Smeborg]

[Edited]

Matt - I don't track turnover stats, but I do track drive results if I am having problems with a team (I don't do so on a routine basis). This helps me to see where I am going wrong (for example too many turnover TDs conceded on offense, or shutouts).

But thanks for the tip - I will think about what stats I might track for the Underworld team, which is all very new to me.

[Smeborg]

I am also working towards a coherent stat increase policy for the Underworld team.

For example, it looks to me like +1AV would be the right pick for Gobbos on a 6,4 (rather than +1MA, which you might give to Gobbos on other teams). Whereas the Throwers and Linerats, being the natural Runners, Receivers and long range Ball Hunters, would get +1MA.

[cyagen]

I would not take +1AV on a Gobo unless it is a developed one that you want to protect or a dedicated LOS guy (with claws and foul appearence, not optimal but loads of fun).

Gobos die too quickly, even with AV8 and +1 MV make them more usefull during their too short lives.

[Smeborg]

Thanks, everybody. Having played a little with the team, here is my attempt at role definition for them:

W-Troll: Slayer/Blocker of the static Lump type.

S-Vermin: Slayers/Blockers of the mobile Blitzer type.

Throwers: Runners/Passers on offense, Utilities on defense.

Linerats: Receivers on offense, Ball Hunters on defense. Not Linemen.

Gobbos: Hyper-mobile Utility Players of the "Pocket Dynamite" type.

Does this make sense to you? Because of the need to keep all 6 Skaven on the pitch, there seem to be more players with dual or multiple roles than on some other teams. In a day or so, I will sketch a coherent development plan for the team.

All the best.

[Hasdrubal]

Thanks, everybody. Having played a little with the team, here is my attempt at role definition for them:

W-Troll: Slayer/Blocker of the static Lump type.

S-Vermin: Slayers/Blockers of the mobile Blitzer type.

Throwers: Runners/Passers on offense, Utilities on defense.

Linerats: Receivers on offense, Ball Hunters on defense. Not Linemen.

Gobbos: Hyper-mobile Utility Players of the "Pocket Dynamite" type.

Does this make sense to you? Because of the need to keep all 6 Skaven on the pitch, there seem to be more players with dual or multiple roles than on some other teams. In a day or so, I will sketch a coherent development plan for the team.

All the best.

Mostly agree with your roles, except for the following:
- Linerats: on offense, I prefer them as Utilities rather than Receivers, which I believe is more handled by the Blitzers (Block, better AV, more likely to end up free from contact due to Slayer role)
- Goblins: act as preferred receivers on offense because of their infiltration capabilities. Develop into utility players from 16 SPP on, but you need to think how you'll use them before that threshold

Some developmental policies:
- +MA/+AV: always take +MA. The team is fast and benefits more from an improved speed than from getting average AV.
- to Guard or not to Guard? Either spam it or skip it on your ST3 players, could be fun on a single goblin as well.
- Starting RR: I've started with 4 and, barring exceptional circumstances, end up with unused ones after each half. 3 could do the job, 4 is nice to have. If you're a high risk type of players, go for 4, otherwise (like me) start with 3 and see how you fare.

[Smeborg]

Very interesting, Hasdrubal - thanks. My take on these issues is not a million miles from yours, but is a bit different:

- Linerats are the preferred receivers if they are unmarked. Otherwise, or if you are in a more desperate situation, Gobbos are the likely receivers.

- Blitzers will not normally be in a receiver position, as they are slayers and are likely to be kicking opponents on the LoS (or getting kicked).

- I am not sure +MA should always be taken. I think it is ideal on the Throwers and Linerats, but I think there is a case for giving +AV to the Troll, the Stormvermin and as mentioned above, possibly to the Gobbos.

- I think you definitely need some Guard. Perhaps as the second skill of the Troll, and I am warming to the idea of Guard as a prime Gobbo doubles pick.

- I have started with 3 Re-rolls, and consider that fine. I plan to take Leader, though (saves 5 points of TV, the max).

All the best.