First skill double on a Beastman

fen · Post by **fen** » Sun Jan 06, 2008 1:02 pm

That Leap player won't live long enough without Block. Waste of a doubles and a skill roll as you've just turned that beastman into an unprotected, essentially unskilled AV8 "must kill" target.

This early on in a Chaos team's career it is a total error to pick speciality skills over basics (Block, Guard, Dodge). Especially on beastmen as they get CAS'd in droves.

I'm not even sorry to be that harsh about this, but those people who talked you into getting Leap don't understand the life, development and growth of a Chaos team correctly. You don't start getting exciting unusual skills until you have Block + Guard on at least half your team. They've steered you wrong at this point in your team's development.

Storch · Post by **Storch** » Sun Jan 06, 2008 11:40 pm

Fen, I appreciate the honesty and we'll see how it plays out.

He's pretty close to getting block (only 6 SPPs away) so block is close.

As for unprotected and 'must kill', he is rarely alone and I haven't used his leaping to any great effect to get him noticed yet giving me time to get him a bit more developed before peopel hopefully start gunning for him.

If he dies, he dies. It's a bash-heavy league so that's to be expected. So far, I must say I've done a rather admirable job of keeping people's attention on the minotaur and chaos warriors so most people really haven't been gunning for any beastmen yet.

I recognized when I took it that it was a gamble, and with a little luck it will be one that pays off. Worst case, it doesn't, he dies, gets replaced, lowers my team value, and makes me a better coach for the future.

In the mean time, I will soon have three casualty machines which will hopefully give me enough slack to maybe develop a more unconventional player or two.

If it's any consolation, if he hadn't gotten Leap, it would have been dodge anyway, so I would have still chosen wrong by your assessment.

I stand by my choice, even if it turns out to be wrong, but I think for my league, it might just work out very well. Worst case, I'll have fun trying it out.

stashman · Post by **stashman** » Mon Jan 07, 2008 12:12 am

You choosed wisely Storch

fen · Post by **fen** » Mon Jan 07, 2008 1:12 am

Storch wrote:If it's any consolation, if he hadn't gotten Leap, it would have been dodge anyway, so I would have still chosen wrong by your assessment.

My choice was Dodge, it's up there earlier in the thread. It's the only doubles skill a chaos team actually needs to bother with.

Storch · Post by **Storch** » Mon Jan 07, 2008 3:11 am

fen wrote:
Storch wrote:If it's any consolation, if he hadn't gotten Leap, it would have been dodge anyway, so I would have still chosen wrong by your assessment.
My choice was Dodge, it's up there earlier in the thread. It's the only doubles skill a chaos team actually needs to bother with.

True enough. I apologize for the unwarranted misquotation.

Jural · Post by **Jural** » Mon Jan 07, 2008 7:16 am

I think Fen is wrong and right.

He is right that Dodge or Block (or maybe guard) would be the better choice in general; such as in situations where you want to maximize your chance to win a league or tournament.

But if you will have more fun with leap, or if it will help you understand why those other skills would have been better, then leap is a great choice.

After all, hopefully you will have many other chances to spend a doubles roll with Chaos, and if you learn your lesson now (or are just insanely happy with a leaping beastman, no matter what the outcome of the games are!) then that is what counts.

As the retired Snew used to say (and I heavily paraphrase): learning to think for yourself is more important than doing the popular thing.

Storch · Post by **Storch** » Mon Jan 07, 2008 8:08 am

Jural,
If it's a matter of rolling doubles, I'm set. Though there are games I failed to break a halfling's armor, if there is one thing I can do it's roll doubles and stats for skill rolls. The skinks on my lizard teams a couple seasons back became legendary (and hated) for just that reason.

Post by **DoubleSkulls** » Mon Jan 07, 2008 11:24 am

Jural wrote:
ianwilliams wrote: And if it forces your opponents to take sure hands when they wouldn't have otherwise have done isn't that a good thing in itself?
That's a good argument for Dodge and Tackle... but I don't understand it for Sure Hands. Who is avoiding Sure Hands? Some teams start with it, and many teams need it to be competitive (Chaos Dwarves and Undead being my favorite example.)

Maybe it's out local leagues, but Sure Hands seems to crop up in droves (3+ per team) no matter if a single Strip Ball player exists or not. (Elves excepted.)

I'm not a big fan of sure hands unless I want to deal with strip ball. On running teams that's 1~2 picks up per half (;))- so maybe you use sure hands once or twice per game? And a TRR does the same job. So why take it on a player who doesn't start with it?

The other side is that it encourages SPP hogging since if you pickup the ball you normally score with that player - or have to hand off/pass - probably a higher risk of failing than the pick up would have been.

On elf teams I really don't like it since line elves want completion SPPs to skill up etc - so different ones each game pick up & pass to the thrower.

With teams with a limited number of ball carriers who don't start with it, I'll take it eventually, its just never much of a priority.

Joemanji · Post by **Joemanji** » Mon Jan 07, 2008 1:28 pm

I've found the same thing with Chaos teams. Taking a player with Sure Hands stunts the whole team's progression. Extra Arms does that to a lesser extent, although the +1 to catch rolls means you have another option to use him as a catcher.

Jural · Post by **Jural** » Mon Jan 07, 2008 4:56 pm

Fascinating! When I want a Beastman (or hobgoblin, etc.) to skill up, I keep him near the LOS, about three squares back. I use my two sure hands players (one of whom should have Kick Off return) to secure the ball, then move forward and hand-off to the sould be star player earner.

I almost never score with the player who has sure hands, unless there is a plethora of strip ball and I can't protect him!

I have a variety of reasons for doing it this way, but it's interesting to see the alternate view.

My Star Player hogs usually end up being +STR players. Nothing like a 5 STR hobgoblin to secure the ball in the middle of a guard laced Chaos Dwarf cage!

mattgslater · Post by **mattgslater** » Mon Jan 07, 2008 6:06 pm

Yeah, I love Sure Hands on the right guy, especially if you have some AG3/MA6 receivers out there. You don't always have to run the ball with him: the RR on the pick-up tilts the odds of a QP in your favor. However, he will slowly, steadily improve, mostly with SPP that he would have hogged with a different skill or that the team would just miss out on otherwise.

On a good running team, you're attempting two pick-ups per half at least. They won't all be with your Sure Hands guy, but if you average three pick-ups per game, that's half a TRR you didn't spend, and even better can STILL spend in the same turn on a different roll. If you wait on SH until you've got a guy with Pass or +AG or something, so much the better.

Plus it stops Strip Ball. Sure Hands would totally be an A- skill without that fact. That just takes the minus off.

However, if we're talking about mutations, I think that Extra Arms is a better bargain than Big Hand (except on Gutter Runners), and Big Hand is a better choice than Sure Hands (of course, all three together is lots of fun).

Joemanji · Post by **Joemanji** » Tue Jan 08, 2008 1:34 am

Jural wrote:Fascinating! When I want a Beastman (or hobgoblin, etc.) to skill up, I keep him near the LOS, about three squares back. I use my two sure hands players (one of whom should have Kick Off return) to secure the ball, then move forward and hand-off to the sould be star player earner.

I almost never score with the player who has sure hands, unless there is a plethora of strip ball and I can't protect him!

Oh, that's always what I try to do. But even the slightest inconvenience, or the use of a TRR elsewhere, means I can't risk it. And once the cage is off, I almost never risk it. 1 in 9 fails far too often ...

mattgslater · Post by **mattgslater** » Tue Jan 08, 2008 3:46 am

That's the other thing SH is for. Say it's turn 1, you're receiving, and the ball goes deep. You set up your cage, put a guy next to the ball just in case, and start blocking on the line. If you've still got your RR, then you know you'll still have it next turn. Sure, you do run the 1/81 or so chance of a double-down/double-down without Block (with Block it's a nice and negligible 1/1296), but just remember that you pick up after re-rolling and you know you've always got a RR for blocking on the offense. That also means that, with a SH player, you can open with blocks right out the gate.

If you get a +AG player, SH comes out even better. If you can't get that last TZ off the ball but you have a RR, you can step into a TZ, pick up with 8/9 chance of success, dodge out with a 35/36 chance of success (70/81 = 87%). If you don't have a RR, it's still 60/81, or about 75%. If you have to GFI once and have a a RR, you get 205/216 x 70/81 = 14,350/17,496, or about 82%. If no RR, it's still a very attemptable (if not exactly happy) 50/81, or a little better than 60%. With two GFIs, the odds fall off again, but still never falls below the 50% mark, even without a re-roll counter. Without SH, your chance of failure jumps dramatically: without a TRR, you've got only 3/4 as many chances to succeed.

One of the great things about SH is similar to a major advantage to Pass: you're often using the free RR to offset a penalty, in conjunction with other rolls that may take up your TRR.