Underworld strategy advice - please help

[Smeborg]

OK, here's my first "complete" development plan for the Underworld. Comments most welcome.

W-Troll: Claw, Guard, S-Firm, Tentacles. Doubles: Block, Tackle. Stats: ST, AV.

S-Vermin: M-Blow, Claw, D-Less, Tackle. Doubles: ignore. Stats: ST, AV.

Throwers: 1st: Block, X-Arms, KoReturn. 2nd: Leader, Block, X-Arms. Doubles: Dodge, S-Step. Stats: MA, ST, AG.

Linerats: 1st: Wrestle, Horns, Tackle. Second: Kick, Wrestle, Horns, Tackle. Doubles: Dodge, S-Step. Stats: MA, ST, AG.

Gobbos: 2-Heads, S-Step, D-Presence. Doubles: Guard, Block. Stats: ST, AG (if no 2-Heads), AV.

3 Team Re-rolls (+ Leader)
14 players plus Apothecary
No AC or CL (to keep TV lean)

Note that in practice, I expect Gobbo development to be more variable than can be captured in a single line of text, especially where doubles and stat increases come early. The possibilities for them are nearly endless. For example: +1AV, S-Step (= Linegobbo). Or: +1AG, Big Hand (= pick up the ball anywhere).

The idea to give Gobbos +1AV on a 6,4 is backed up by my experience with Nurgle (+AV is one of the best advances you can give to a Rotter, as it keeps him on the pitch, prolongs his useful life, and thereby preserves his skills a little longer).

D-Presence looks like a very handy skill for the Gobbos. I will have to consider whether to give it to them as their second normal skill (on the basis that they will not make it to a third). However, D-Presence is most useful when combined with either S-Step or S-Firm (to put a marked player at -2 to catch). Notwithstanding the advice to stand off with Gobbos, I am already finding it common to mark potential receivers with them (a role that is very consistent with their hyper-mobility, once they get 2-Heads).

[SillySod]

I'll just chime in and say that guard is fantastic on the storm vermin.

Getting guard on both vermin is ideal but you should always take at least one right from the start. Going "omg claw" and investing in three killers seems totally counter productive. The troll should definately take claw as the first skill because its the fastest route to claw/MB plus it helps get the 2nd skill much faster. Once you have the troll claw you dont need the vermin to become killers too early on. You certainly dont need both to develop as killers when you only have one blitz action per turn. Actually you are probably shooting yourself in the foot because you will find it an awful lot harder to set up an effective blocking machine without guard.

Dont forget that two heads is pretty cool on the skaven as well as the goblins.

[Smeborg]

Your point is very well made, SillySod. Thanks. Maybe you are right.

I agree that Guard is very good on the S-Vermin, confirmed by a couple of practice games. It is probably the skill of choice for them in a tournament (with the W-Troll getting Claw). My thinking is that the Troll ought to get to his second skill pretty fast (Guard), at which point both S-Vermin become rather handy on the offensive LoS. Plus a Gobbo or two will get Guard sooner or later. A classic "problem" with slayers is that Guard distracts from the slayer skills, as well as slowing down their development. I rather think the S-Vermin would be handy at 3 normal skills without Guard (M-Blow, Claw, D-Less) against any of the bash teams.

All the best.

[cyagen]

Dodge on doubles is priceless for Blitzers, it makes them mobile and a pain to knock down. So I would not ignore double on them.

[Smeborg]

cyagen - I do not disagree. Maybe you are right.

However, one of the defining features of the Underworld team is that they are the fastest team to develop can openers. And they need this if they are to stand a chance against (say) Orcs, Dwarfs, Chaos Dwarfs. So I am reluctant to give it up.

[Hasdrubal]

Due to the role duplication of Underworld players, their development is best oriented by opponents they face in their league. If lots of bash teams, then starting as can openers may be more suitable; if lots of agility teams, Guard may be more valuable.

[mattgslater]

Goblins function as pseudo-Guard. I don't have direct Underworld experience, but that's true for all the other Stunty teams, and it matters more on the teams with ST3 players (Orcs) or with 2+ dodges (Ogres). Underworld have both. Then again, Guard makes it easier to block with ST2 and still get 2d. This is yet one more reason why Lizardmen have a very high peak; it takes them forever to start getting Guard, and when they do it adds another level to their game.

I'd probably go MB/Claw with the Stormvermin, though Claw might be the #3 skill on the #2 guy. For late skills, I'd try hard to get a Guard guy and a Dauntless guy, and then Stand Firm. If I'm so lucky to have an early double for Dodge, that's the Dauntless target, as big guys with Tackle are (mercifully) a thing of the past. Still, Stand Firm moves to follow Dodge and MB, because Blodge/SF/MB is top value; Claw can wait for 51 SPP. I don't like taking Tackle and Claw on the same guy. Tackle can follow Wrestle on Linerat #1, or even on both. I understand the either/or argument with Claw/Tackle on the Vermin, but I trust my matchup skills more than that. I'd probably build the Throwers for double-duty, with Block first. Dodge on doubles, yeah.

If I already had a Block Goblin and got doubles on a non-Block Goblin at 16 SPP, I'd probably take Guard. It doesn't matter if he's a Two Heads (#1, #4, #5, #7+) or a SS (#2, #3, #6) Goblin, though if he's #2 or #3 and I haven't got #6 yet, that guy moves up the chain (Guard is for flankers, SS is for wingers, but flankers with Guard/SS are really cool). If I get second doubles on a Block Goblin, I don't know if I'd take it over the mutation, frankly.

[Smeborg]

I am trying to build a team with equal performance against bash and agility (that is my standard aim). We have a very balanced league with at least 18 different races represented.

The Underworld are one of the races that have the philosophy of a weed: "Live fast, die young." They are one of the more extreme in this regard. I think you have to plan for every player to reach full potential at just 2 skills, no more, before their untimely death. I like the idea of developing the Skaven players in pairs, for redundancy. There will still be plenty of variation caused by stat increases and doubles. The only exceptions to this that I can see are the Leader, the Kicker and possibly (later) a Sneaky Git - all minor specialisms requiring just one skill.

Underworld and Nurgle are, I suspect, the two most mutant races in the game. Beyond this their differences are interesting:

- Nurgle start with many mutations and are the "passive" mutant race - their mutations mainly work during their opponent's turn.

- Underworld start with no mutations, but are hungry for them. They are the "active" mutant race - their mutations mainly make them hyper-active during their own turn.

[SillySod]

A troll guard isnt going to be nearly as useful as a storm vermin guard. It'll be pretty useful to have but you cant shift the troll around nearly as freely, certainly not if you're trying to get the most out of a Really Stupid St5 lump. I'm not convinced that guard will get in the way of killer duties either... this team is definately focused around sniping blitzes or pushing your opponent off of you. The guards definately dont opperate in the same way as most other teams.

Goblins dont replace the guard either. They are great for generating assists but there are alot of places where you need the guard, not a goblin.

[Hasdrubal]

I am trying to build a team with equal performance against bash and agility (that is my standard aim). We have a very balanced league with at least 18 different races represented.

The Underworld are one of the races that have the philosophy of a weed: "Live fast, die young." They are one of the more extreme in this regard. I think you have to plan for every player to reach full potential at just 2 skills, no more, before their untimely death. I like the idea of developing the Skaven players in pairs, for redundancy. There will still be plenty of variation caused by stat increases and doubles. The only exceptions to this that I can see are the Leader, the Kicker and possibly (later) a Sneaky Git - all minor specialisms requiring just one skill.

Underworld and Nurgle are, I suspect, the two most mutant races in the game. Beyond this their differences are interesting:

- Nurgle start with many mutations and are the "passive" mutant race - their mutations mainly work during their opponent's turn.

- Underworld start with no mutations, but are hungry for them. They are the "active" mutant race - their mutations mainly make them hyper-active during their own turn.

Totally agree with you on the short development path and skaven redundancy; I would likely apply this redundancy principle on core goblins.

Possible development packages:
- Skaven blitzers: Mighty Blow/Claw ; Guard/Mighty Blow
- Skaven linemen: Wrestle/Strip Ball ; Wrestle/Tackle
- Skaven throwers: I'd still develop those guys differently I think: Extra Arms/Leader; Kick/Block
- Troll: Tentacles/Stand Firm/Prehensive Tail ; Guard/Stand Firm/Tentacles ; Claw/Tentacles/Stand Firm
- Goblins: 2 Heads/Big Hand ; Foul Appearance/ Side Step (LoS goblins)

[Smeborg]

Thanks, Hasdrubal - very interesting comments.

I too was thinking of a second development path for Linegobbos. However, I was thinking that maybe S-Step was more important as a first skill for preservation on the LoS.

In a couple of days or so I'll have another go at a plan based on everyone's feedback.

[mattgslater]

SS dramatically reduces damage suffered, especially on the LOS.

FA slightly reduces damage suffered, especially on the LOS.

FA adds 20k to TV; that's 50% over a rookie, or 33% over a SS guy. It decreases his chance of suffering on blocks by about 17%.

[cyagen]

FA adds 20k to TV; that's 50% over a rookie, or 33% over a SS guy. It decreases his chance of suffering on blocks by about 17%.

SS also add 20k to TV and decreases chances of suffering from a block by 0%

[mattgslater]

SS also add 20k to TV...

Yes.

...and decreases chances of suffering from a block by 0%

Massive fail, sorry. On the whole Side Step is on the rough order of Block (only not a doubles skill) when it comes to avoiding knockdown. Without SS, you get chained regularly, dramatically increasing your chance of knockdown. With SS, you almost never get chained. If they don't get you the first time, they ain't gettin' you at all without undue investment. If 1/2 of pushes lead to chains, and the odds of pushing are 5/12 (hit with Block) or 7/12 (without), averaging out to 1/2, then you save a quarter of a block every time you get hit. Of course, that saves you an additional 1/16 block off of chains from the second block, for every time you get hit (1/4 for every time there's a possible chain). Assuming there are no four-fer blocks, or that the value of such blocks gets washed out in burned actions, that means SS saves you 5/16 of a block every time you get hit.

Contrast to Foul Appearance, which saves you 1/6 of a block every time you get hit. It may stop a few chains, too, but it may also open some extra blocks. So if it stops 1/6 x 1/2 chain, but costs 1/6 x 1/10 secondary blocks, that leaves 1/15 block saved. Added to 1/6, that's 7/30 blocks saved, about 2/3 of the damage saved by SS, with none of the clogging/marking/hedging value of Side Step beyond perhaps a touch of marginal threat value.

[Smeborg]

Thanks, everybody, for a most interesting discussion. Here is my "revised" plan (essentials only) based on the helpful and well argued feedback from youse guys:

W-Troll: Claw, Guard, Stand Firm?. Doubles: Block, ?. Stats: ST, AV?. I am unsure beyond the obvious advances for the big fella, but difficult decisions look mostly to be a long way off (unless I roll a 6/4).

S-Vermin: Guard, M-Blow, Claw. Doubles: Dodge. Stats: MA, ST, AG.

Throwers: 1st: Block, X-Arms, KoReturn. 2nd: Leader, Block, X-Arms. Doubles: Dodge, S-Step. Stats: MA, ST, AG.

Linerats: 1st: Wrestle, Horns, Tackle. Second: Kick, Wrestle, Horns, Tackle. Doubles: Dodge, S-Step. Stats: MA, ST, AG.

Gobbos: I am not sure this can be defined in a single path. Given the likely turnover of the little guys, I am inclined to a single style of build, starting with 2-Heads for the first skill if it is a normal roll. Other than that, I expect case by case variations according to doubles and stat increases. I am inclined to Guard as the doubles pick if it is the first roll, or the second after 2-Heads. As already stated, I am inclined to +AV on a 6/4, but this decision would be influenced by any prior skill advances. Once Gobbos are mobile (2-Heads), I am inclined to defensive skills (Sidestep, perhaps F-Appearance). I am guessing that putting skilled Gobbos on the defensive LoS is an unilikely luxury (surely rookies will go there instead). If I ever get to 4 hyper-mobile Gobbos (2-Heads or +1AG), I will consider specific Linegobbo builds for some of the others. I am running with 7 Gobbos - if appropriate, I will increase that to 8.

I expect to go with this plan and see what happens!