6+6 on Skaven Runner

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grampyseer
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Re: 6+6 on Skaven Runner

Post by grampyseer »

richardleitch5 wrote:The computergame AI hardly passes so pass block is nearly compleatly pointless but then i blame the bad AI not the skill.
That might be the only example of AI being GOOD that I've ever heard 8)

Seriously, take the skill if you want. It's not optimal, but optimal isn't always fun.

I'd challenge you to see how many passes longer than QP are made during one of your league nights....maybe you'll be surprised.

Best of luck to you.

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Re: 6+6 on Skaven Runner

Post by Porkus_Maximus »

Our league dose a lot of passing and so pass block is more usefull than you seem to think, if and when they stop passing it will have done its job the player has other skills to use and will still annoy your apponent. The computergame AI hardly passes so pass block is nearly compleatly pointless but then i blame the bad AI not the skill.
EDIT: I've edited my post because after reading it back to myself I sounded like a massive prick which was not my intention at all. To keep this as short and concise as I can I will just say this;

I have played hundreds of games of Blood Bowl, both playing as and against fast passing teams. I honestly cannot recall the last time myself or an opponent made anything longer than a short pass and the vast majority of those are made from the safety of within our own halves, or while behind a screen. If you find yourself with the opportunity to pass block your opponent then I cannot help but question their coaching decisions.

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Re: 6+6 on Skaven Runner

Post by grampyseer »

slow clap for the porkus

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Re: 6+6 on Skaven Runner

Post by Greyhound »

richardleitch5 wrote:...Move him next to the thrower or catcher to give -1 unless NoS.
Just as an FYI if you play the computer game version of Cyanide this does not work. Now let's continue the conversation, based on the real BB.

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Re: 6+6 on Skaven Runner

Post by Krulfang »

grampyseer wrote:slow clap for the porkus
*joins in*

A 90% win ratio is way too good... I was 90% for a while in WFB- that's when I realized I needed better (or more serious about the game) opponents. Then my ratio dropped to a still respectable 65% - that meant I was near the top of my group, often even on top, but I wasn't ALWAYS winning. If you are as godlike as it seems with Skaven, write a playbook. As for laughing at the stuff posted here... Please comment on it with corrections you see as fitting.

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Re: 6+6 on Skaven Runner

Post by Greyhound »

richardleitch5 wrote:Need to pick up a ball thats in 4 tackle zones on a rainy day then do it on a 2+ with big hand, stealing the ball from places they think it was safe in.
4 tackle zones is extremely rare and you'll likely need leap as well to get in there as a dodge in 4 tackle zones is done at -3!!
richardleitch5 wrote:Nerves of steel let you catch the ball in tackle zones "before" dodgeign away and that lets you keep it moveing.
is that on the same leaping/pass block/big hand guy, or just another freak? Diving catch gives you a mini-NoS which is not costing you a double and keeps your TV low. On Ag4 it's quiet generous. If you are fine tuning a catcher who sits in 2+ tackle zones, I suppose you already have block and you should probably look at catch as well.

Finally ST3 is good for blitzing on offence but it's also (and mostly) very good for when your GR gets blitzed, it will often mean that 2 players are committed to blitz him (one to assist) and that's not always easy when these very fast players sneak behind the defence line. If the opponent can commit 2 safety on each each side of the pitch, behind the main line (except Slanns) then you're likely playing against a diminished group of players at the front.

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Re: 6+6 on Skaven Runner

Post by Smurf »

What is being played here?

A running game with a hand off, or passing games.

It seems to me that building a super fast blitzer is the preferred option, even if this blitzer needs a host of other skills to make it decent.

Whereas the team can easily perform with a line of: 1 RO, 1 Thr, 2 Blitzers, 5 Linerats and 2 Gutter runners.

The move pass > move hand off > and move score is a clearly an easy option for the team. That's why I'm promoting the non ST upgrade. The movement on defence means it can get into position on blitzes, zip through the lines and with Leap/VLL can bounce over lines to get where it wants. Super mobile... the alternative is to make the team a bit more bashy and this could cause problems in the long run as attrition rips through team, meaning you are going to have to field those weaker guys eventually to fill the gaps on the pitch.

IMO if you opponent can fear dropping the ball because there is some super fast ball grasping nut on the loose, then they'll begin to have frustrated plays... ie the pressure mounts up and you are winning the psychology part of the game. Trying to make your opponent feel that they has lost before they has done so.

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Re: 6+6 on Skaven Runner

Post by Porkus_Maximus »

What is being played here?

A running game with a hand off, or passing games.
Fast agile teams can combine both and often do so to move the ball practically the entire length of the pitch in a single turn.
the alternative is to make the team a bit more bashy and this could cause problems in the long run as attrition rips through team, meaning you are going to have to field those weaker guys eventually to fill the gaps on the pitch.
Turning a gutter runner into a ball blitzer doesn't make the team more "bashy", it's not as if you're tooling him up with claws and piling on, you're turning him into a player that will turn the ball over.

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Re: 6+6 on Skaven Runner

Post by mattgslater »

There's more to it than that whole GR-as-blitzer bit. That's a nice comparison, yeah... but there's no reason you can't give the same player Leap at 16 SPP: sure, it's a 3+, but to your opponent's calculations it's all the same. And since he's ST3, you have to worry about his ability to blitz and mark.

The real point is, that's only one of several aspects of +ST that you're comparing to the whole of VLL. I don't even think "because you can use him as a blitzer" is half the argument for +ST. That's why this conversation is crazy. You can cage-front with him. You can use him to nail breakaway receiver-types, knocking one down (or pushing him) and covering the next. I would give him Side Step before I gave him Leap. ST3+SS+Blodge is very hard for Skaven to get, and it really lets you mix up your defensive backfields without violating any of the core backfield principles, letting you protect an extra GR or a Dirty Player or something. This guy has a reasonable chance to get to it, without ever compromising on any skill selection.

It's got very little to do with bashing or "winning the bash war" except maybe against other Skaven or similar light teams. It has everything to do with having the right guy in the right place at the right time. Yes, VLL does make it easier (eventually) to have a guy in the right place at the right time, and yes, ultimately there's a place for that on a Skaven team. It's not worth trading away a jewel of a player like this. He's two normal skills off of a +MA Wardancer at the same TV.

Matt's picks for this guy, assuming no specials: +ST-Block-SS-Leap-DT. If you don't like DT or really want to try some boutique skill, then choice of Pass Block, Pro, Shadowing or Tackle as #5. Doubles may be Horns, and may follow with Wrestle, Leap and Tackle. It's hard to pass up +MA on 10, but I would. I would definitely take a +AG or +ST.

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Re: 6+6 on Skaven Runner

Post by Darkson »

Given the choice, I'd rather face a VLL GR than a ST3 one.

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Re: 6+6 on Skaven Runner

Post by Tourach »

ST

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Re: 6+6 on Skaven Runner

Post by Aliboon »

Matt's picks for this guy, assuming no specials: +ST-Block-SS-Leap-DT. If you don't like DT or really want to try some boutique skill, then choice of Pass Block, Pro, Shadowing or Tackle as #5. Doubles may be Horns, and may follow with Wrestle, Leap and Tackle. It's hard to pass up +MA on 10, but I would. I would definitely take a +AG or +ST.
Talking about yourself in the 3rd person Matt!? :-? :lol:

But I couldn't really disagree with your skill picks, although I think i'd rather make him a more out and out ball sacker and go wrestle rather than block, possibly strip ball etc.

But as for the thread, +ST without a doubt.

From what I've read of Smurf and Richardleitch5, they play in an elfball league and any advice they give should be read with that in mind...

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Re: 6+6 on Skaven Runner

Post by richardleitch5 »

mattgslater wrote: Oh, please don't go. If one of us reading here comes away a better coach for this, you're making the world a better place.
I cant tell if this is sarcasem or not, most other posts make me think haveing independant thought is frowned upon. Still if its not sarcasem then i thank you for this and will give you a new longwinded list.


1 Pass block again
Just haveing the skill changes the other players passing game and gives you controll over the apponents passing. This can be a little as moveing to make a longer pass or setting up a wall of tackle zones for the passer it dont matter the job of controll is done. There are ways to force a pass with intimadating the ball carryer but the final verdict is i do NOT want to see my apponents passing that ball over a quick pass. As for passing withing little box formations....thats not a pass happy game thats just your SPP fix, passing the ball "some distance" with the intent of doing something with it is a pass i wish to see stopped. I got to deal with people passing a long bome on a 2+ that lets you easerly get the ball from anywhere to anywhere and the none elf teams are almost as bad.

2 Deploying gutter runners
Telling me to play a better pool dont work when playing the way this forum thinks is best will get my team distroyed in humileating ways. Now "most" apponents are themself ST3 so hacking away at them is not a big broblem. the ST4 lot is harder yes but we do have access to claws, M-block and all the other bashing things ourself so it all comes down the huge ST avantage they have that can be solved with selective blocking, you may not creem your apponents like a bashing team can but then again every player you remove drasticly weekens there number of tackle zones. It gose down to the protection problem and with your posts it sounds like a lot of short lived gutter runners than you need a lot of gold to replace and work to get them up again. On this i support your need for ST3 but i see it as makeing up for so much ST2 on the fild to start with.

As for getting a supped up blitzer or linerat...sounds nice...but at the end of the day a fast moveing blitzer on a team of fast moveing players VS players that know how to deal with them dont work so well.

3 Playbook
I think not, i would hate to be responsable for over half the readers to rip out there eyes and spout intults with sand and nether regions...constructive arguments are lightly to change my play as is my apponents adapting to my stile. Still if i do a playbook i guess ill have another one to laugh at. Point to make - no stile will last agenst players that adapt to it and most my apponents do this.

3 A funny thing
This is simply a vast missunderstanding of the difrent ways we play, to me a gutter runner is a targit but a gutter runner with the ball is dead. I use the runners to move the ball not hold onto it, get them to pass it or hand it off to a line rat or something and let them be in a cage, distract aponents with a runner whos set out for that job. Only keep the ball with a runner if he is well out of the apponents movement (with 9 move its not unheard about). ST3 is not impossable to counter infact people do it every game.

4 Skill hierarchy
Sure use some skills more used and at times better, dodge is usless in a high tackle league, pass block is usless in a quick passing/no passing league. It still falls down to how you use them and how others react to you useing them. If you have a skill your apponent must act accordinly.

5 Dubles
Waiting for a few dubles for a built is a crime, you dont build for them you adapt to them.

6 +AG on low AG guys
Not part of the post but really who wont want another ball mover on the team, dwarfs more so than most as they have only 4. lizards got skinks.

7 The passing challange
Before pass block arrived on the pitch i could count about 6 in a normal game (most short or quick till the later games when it gets to long) a hell of a lot more from AG4 players, after pass block maybe 2 but as i said before stopping the pass compleatly is what im after in a pass blocker.

8 Pointless game AI
AI being good if it dont move the ball...really you think not moveing the ball is good? the computer game is just an example of when pass block is pointless nothing more.

9 Pass block VS ST
you what? insanity. Im premoving "SKILLS" over ST3 not pass block, that just fell into one of the builds that can be drasticly improved by a dubble. As i have said a few times before this is not pass block VS ST.

10 Just to support my opponents.
I play your way i DIE IN NASTY HORRIED WAYS (i did say this befor) that itself should tell you that my opponents know how to deal with such stiles and my wins dont come from them being bad players at least two seem to have a counter plan waiting for next time.

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Re: 6+6 on Skaven Runner

Post by mattgslater »

richardleitch5 wrote:
mattgslater wrote: Oh, please don't go. If one of us reading here comes away a better coach for this, you're making the world a better place.
I cant tell if this is sarcasem or not, most other posts make me think haveing independant thought is frowned upon. Still if its not sarcasem then i thank you for this and will give you a new longwinded list.
No sarcasm intended. I think there's a lot you're not getting, because I understand all your points just fine, and I seriously doubt you understand mine. I'll have a longer, more specific response sometime soon. But there are a lot of ways to shut down an air game, and you don't need dedicated skills to do it, especially if you have a 9/3/4/7 player with Dodge and GA access. VLL is good for just about nothing else, while +ST does a whole lot more than rush passers and shut down receivers.

Also, by shutting down your opponents' long games, you'll just teach them one of the secrets of the game. Spread the comp love on strictly short play, and you'll do much better. It's okay to build an offensive Thrower to make those long plays on a short clock, but moving the ball with MA6, MA7 and MA8 players and throwing a QP from behind coverage, you can get the ball 23 squares without GFI. With just a simple square screen, you can thwart a non-Leap GR, but even with Leap, he's got to be/stay in position, no small feat with ST2 and no positioning skills.

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What is Nuffle's view? Through a window, two-by-three. He peers through snake eyes.
What is Nuffle's lawn? Inches, squares, and tackle zones: Reddened blades of grass.
What is Nuffle's tree? Risk its trunk, space the branches. Touchdowns are its fruit.
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Re: 6+6 on Skaven Runner

Post by Smurf »

Yes we have a top heavy Elf game. Many of our opponents find it diffcult to nail down brilliant passing unless they are elves. Amongst these teams are also a Norse, Orc and Skaven x2.

Another aspect is to out wit your opponent and come up with suprising plays.

The thread is missleading if a 6+6 = ST+1 all the time. Just trying to explore other possibilities. IMO a +1ST GR doesn't make much of a threat. I just expect it to get stuck in more and eventually to get hit down and hurt.

The trick is with the VLL/Leaper is he is a theat from 4 squares in over the scrimmage line. Suddenly he has the chance to score. Nice for equalising or scoring the winning TD.

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