Meditations on the Cult of Position: Med IV up Groundhog Day

[Coach Grievous]

These are indeed Bloodbowl basics thus far. That doesn't mean I'm not appreciative of the effort or interested in this, though. I'm new to discussions on this site myself, but I've already noticed that some of the kind of discourse I'm interested in needs an established vocabulary which goes a bit deeper than is commonly accepted in Bloodbowl.

Also, another "hell yes" to diagrams.

[mattgslater]

Will update Meditation II with diagrams. Can't do it tonight.

[sunnyside]

Ok, so judging by that report, what matt is high on is paint thinner. You may want to switch brands...or maybe not...

Anyway I like "wall" for side by side contact, "stack" for front to back, and "screen" as these fit with existing nomenclature.

Fence might stick, but you might get things to stick better if you referred to "lose" (only one dodge required due to offset) and "tight" (what you mean by fence) screens.

I'd avoid using "wedge" like that. It's used in military parlance and some other things, and while used for a varity of things, I don't think it fits well with two person diagonal contact. That said I think a five player + ball carrier "wedge" might stick as a term to compete with the typical "cage" and might be useful for describing the dynamics of non "closed" ball carrier protecting formations if you're going there.

[mattgslater]

Using Joe's idea, I'll post screenshots of playcreator diagrams, with the opposition on the right-hand side. Joe's diagrams, covering Meditation II, would be named this way.

Wall


Wedge


Stack


Fence


Screen

[mattgslater]

I'd avoid using "wedge" like that. It's used in military parlance and some other things, and while used for a varity of things, I don't think it fits well with two person diagonal contact. That said I think a five player + ball carrier "wedge" might stick as a term to compete with the typical "cage" and might be useful for describing the dynamics of non "closed" ball carrier protecting formations if you're going there.

I was looking for a consistent term for players who are in formation on a parallel as opposed to players who are offset by one row. Not to spill the beans on Meditation III, but I figured I'd settle on "square" and "edge", respectively. "Edge wall" didn't sound good to me, but...

a) Wall+Edge = Wedge.

b) Wedge is an American football term that means what I'm using the term for in Blood Bowl, and even better, it applies explicitly on special teams, which is the single best real-world sports analogy to Blood Bowl. Multi-player wedges on Am.FB.ST. (the cage-alternative) are called [/i]sleds, and I feel no need to incorporate that term, especially since they've been banned in actual American football, because running into a blocking-sled causes too many injuries.

[Anglakhel]

Small complaint on the diagrams:

What do the various letters stand for?

B?

L?

T?

In the context, I don't think the letters matter, so they shouldn't be there. The diagrams should all use a consistent symbol to mark all the players since the only relevant detail for your purpose is the spatial relationship. The letters invite confusion as someone tries to determine their relevance.

[Joemanji]

Why don't you do some then?

They are player positions from Play-Creator: Lineman, Blitzer, Thrower. The program only gives you a certain number of each to use.

[Anglakhel]

Why don't you do some then?

They are player positions from Play-Creator: Lineman, Blitzer, Thrower. The program only gives you a certain number of each to use.

I was offering constructive criticism for Matt. I think he should be incorporating diagrams throughout his discussion. It is thoughtful for you to provide some, but ultimately should be his responsibility for maximum clarity.

Someone can figure out the meaning of the letters. I did. But I was discussing the diagrammatic and rhetorical value of the letters. They serve no purpose in the diagrams in relation to the spatial concepts discussed and detract from the clarity of the diagrams.

[mattgslater]

Yeah, I was using the diagrams Joe provided. For future diagrams, and maybe for an edit on MedII, I was considering using alphabetical codes (A, B, C) for the team in question and numbers for the opponent. This can be done easily in Playcreator.

[Overhamsteren]

I know very little about American football so must say sunnysides terms are more intuitive.

Looking forwards to more from you.

(hope you don't mind the sig it's just a bit of bad humour)

[sunnyside]

b) Wedge is an American football term that means what I'm using the term for in Blood Bowl, and even better, it applies explicitly on special teams, which is the single best real-world sports analogy to Blood Bowl. Multi-player wedges on Am.FB.ST. (the cage-alternative) are called [/i]sleds, and I feel no need to incorporate that term, especially since they've been banned in actual American football, because running into a blocking-sled causes too many injuries.

In American football the term is used for formations involving three or more players. If you only have two players you can't make a "wedge". I don't know that they have a precise term for two players.


And I think the 3-5 person american football wedges fit better with other definitions of the term and with intuition.

Might I suggest the term "echelon" for the diagonal arrangment? I believe it means exactly what you want.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Echelon_formation

You also would get to adopt the terms "right" and "left" echelon if they proved useful. And it is used for two element arrangments, in part because of its popularity with aircraft and ships, which often operate in pairs.

[B SIDE]

I'm going to have to start an undead team so I can have an echelon of eidolons.

If I want an eidolon wedge, on the other hand, I must take up golf. (Which is, as I understand, a hobby for the nearly undead.)


So we have the beginnings of a vocabulary for player formations, but what about language for players relationships to the sidelines, to the end zones, and to their opponents? For example, we might use different language for a player in position to assist a block vs a player in a position to cancel assists.

Thinking about these topics will, I hope, cause me to focus more on the aspects of "tactics" that I've always overlooked in favor of "strategy". (This was a big weakness in my chess play as well.)

[mattgslater]

I was debating whether to make Med III about square vs. offset formations or about the pitch. But I think I have to make Med III a discussion of geography, and Med IV will be about square and edge formations.

I don't like "echelon." Too many syllables. How about calling them "inside" and "outside" stacks, depending on the relationship of the rear player to the front player?

Inside Stacks
– – 1 –|– – – – 2 – –| – – – –
– – – –|– – – – – – –| – – – –
– – a –|– – – – c – –| – – – –
– – – b|– – – d – – –| – – – –

Outside Stacks
– – 1 –|– – – – 2 – –| – – – –
– – – –|– – – – – – –| – – – –
– – a –|– – – – c – –| – – – –
– b – –|– – – – – d –| – – – –

Square Stacks
– – 1 –|– – – – 2 – –| – – – –
– – – –|– – – – – – –| – – – –
– – a –|– – – – c – –| – – – –
– – b –|– – – – d – –| – – – –

By this thinking, the backfield formation of the Ziggurat is a pair (one on each side of the pitch) of outside screen stacks, or outside-stacked screens, or something like that.

[sunnyside]

Hmmm I think the concept of a back to back "stack" is powerful and specific enough you just might want to let it be.

Echelon may not roll off the tounge, but it is only seven letters to type. For forums that's what matters unless you move your lips while you read or type.

I suppose if you want something short and punchy maybe go with "zigs"

-because they're the reason we call it a ziggurat defense
-because you could have zigs and zags for the two orientations (if you get crowd pushed on turn one, you may have zigged when you should have zagged as they say. Or, with how the terms would probalby be used, zagged when you should have zigged)
-for great justice!

In this case a ziggurate defense would be composed of a three player wall in on the LOS, and the rest of the team arranged in four zigs such that there are no gaps the defense can run through without throwing blocks or blitzing, and with one player on each side of the field screened by the leading edges of the two zigs on that side. Hence why its such a useful defense prior to aquiring position skills.

However inside and outside stacks would "work".

[B SIDE]

I frickin love echelon. But zig is even better.

Move 'zig'. For great justice!

So if more than two players are so arranged, I shall use echelon. But for two players, I shall use "zig".