Cyanide releases their Khorne Roster

[Nephron]

Heyho guys,

I agree with Smeborg.
Khorne really is different from the other teams. My team is in its third season (14games per season) now. People are often commenting that they really fear and/or hate the mass frenzy. It gives you so many options, if used the right way. So what if it can go horribly wrong? It is not easy to play and the results can be amazing

So far this season has been the best with my Khorne team so far. We are halfway through (7 games played) and I am at a 6-1-0 record. Of course there was luck involved a few times, but that is the game

To give you all a little overview, here are some stats of my team:

Games played: 35
W/D/L: 22/5/8
CAS: 102:65 (2.91:1.86)
TDs: 56:33

The first season was really hard. You have no skills and Frenzy is more curse than a help.
The second season was a lot better. I placed 2nd in my group. You have more skills and Frenzy becomes a lot easier to handle once you have Block and a bit of Guard. Having developed killers makes things easier as well. Playing with less players than your opponent really is a problem.
So far, the third season is amazing. Although my TV is through the roof by now (218 atm), I won every game except one so far. Once Khorne gets rolling, it really works. You will never see the standard 2:1 grind thanks to Frenzy, but thats what makes Khorne interesting. Every match is a battle to keep your players in formation and not have them push themselves out of place.

As so often, I need your advice on 2 new skills for my team.
The first is a 2nd skill on a Pit Fighter. Already has Block. Most of my Pit Fighters got Tackle as a second skill, but I think, I need some Dauntless. What do you guys think?
The other skill is a bit trickier. A Bloodletter with Block, Guard rolled an 11. Do I take the AG+? Having AV7 they are already the weakest link in the team, and having AG4 would paint an even bigger target on the Bloodletter. It would improve his mobility to get the guard where I need it, but it would still be risky.
What are your thoughts?

If anyone is interested, I could post my complete team again.

Thanks in advance for the advice!

Bye,
Nephron

[Smeborg]

Nephron -

I would be inclined to take the +1AG on the Bloodletter. I have such a player and he is very good. He improves the ball moving skills of the team notieceably (whether as Thrower or Receiver), and I also find myself using him a lot to blitz when I am defending and things are not going well. The AG4 makes him a good "last ditch" utility player. And with AG4, getting to the next skill-up will be much quicker (Dodge, of course).

Dauntless is to be recommended on Pit Fighters, I think. I plan it as 2nd skill (I take Wrestle first, but that doesn't change the argument in favour of Dauntless). With only 1 player above ST3, I think the team needs a few Dauntless players (otherwise they risk being a team that can blitz, but not block). Another way of looking at the Pit Fighters is that they are often marked up, and consequently they scrap in isolation from the rest of the team (quite fluffy, I feel). They need to be built to fight solo, and Dauntless fits with that.

And yes, I would be rather interested to see the whole team.

Hope that helps.

[swilhelm73]

I'd agree they are preforming below a tier 1 team.

The problem, it seems to me, is that if your opponent is decent you will be throwing a fair number of 1D or even -2D blocks because of frenzy, and the answer is more rerolls, so if the desire was to move them to tier 1 then I would lower the cost of the RRs.

[Nephron]

Heyho,

thanks for the input Smeborg.

Here is my team so far:

#1 PFC 0SPP
#2 PFC Block, +AG, +MA 44SPP
#3 PFC Block, Guard, Fend 34SPP
#4 PFC Block, (Dauntless) 18SPP
#5 PFC Block, Leader, Tackle 47SPP
#6 PFC Block, Tackle 28SPP
#7 Bloodletter Block, Dodge, Guard 38SPP
#8 Bloodletter Block, Dodge, Guard 35SPP
#9 Bloodletter Block, Guard (+AG) 32SPP
#10 Bloodletter Block, Dodge, Guard 45SPP
#11 Bloodthirster MB, Guard, BreakTackle 34SPP
#12 Herald Block, MB, Tackle, Guard, -AG 62SPP
#13 Herald Block, MB, PO, Tackle, JumpUp 103SPP

3RR 11FF 1AC/1CL Apo 218TV (without the 2 ups I need to decide)

The teams development is pretty well rounded. So far I have only lost Cultists or Bloodletters with 0-2 skills. I favour Block over Wrestle on the Cultists, because it keeps them standing. Mobility is often a big problem for me, and every player that is standing helps.
I usually score with my AG4 Cultist or one of the Bloodletters, since they are easiest to get out of contact with the other teams players.
I blitz more with the Bloodthirster by now, but he still underperforming sadly. I can't get a CAS with him very often. But he is still a huge roadblock
My Heralds are the key players in a lot of situations, especially #13. With MB, PO and JumpUp he is my choice for Blitzer when I dont want to risk the WildAnimal roll.

I think the team is pretty much in its prime at the moment. I have solid killers, 7 players with Guard and Block across the board. Hope you find the team interesting Smeborg

Bye,
Nephron

[plasmoid]

Hi Smeborg,

They need to be built to fight solo, and Dauntless fits with that.

On that same note, I've been thinking a bit about pro. Not a very popular skill, but for a player without access to the 2 power-categories (S & A) it gets a touch better. And this particular player often finds himself in a situation where his first block has to go well or he gets into a sticky situation...

Frenzy, Wrestle/Block, Pro.
Thoughts?

[Smeborg]

plasmoid - I would take Daunltess before Pro, then it would be really good. Fend is a contender, though.

[plasmoid]

On a completely different note - my team has had a rough start, but Things are improving every so slightly.
I was wondering, has anyone else tried developing a Bloodletter with Leap (and Frenzy).
It would give many surfing possibilities, as well as straight Cage-popping. IMO.

[Smeborg]

On a completely different note - my team has had a rough start, but Things are improving every so slightly.
I was wondering, has anyone else tried developing a Bloodletter with Leap (and Frenzy).
It would give many surfing possibilities, as well as straight Cage-popping. IMO.

Hi Plasmoid - I wouldn't give Frenzy to a Bloodletter, as their worth comes largely from being the only players without Frenzy. They are the only "reliable" players on the team. I find they score most of the TDs, take most of the blocks on the LoS, and do most of the scrambling around the pitch whenever the team is in a tight spot. So they are really busy, versatile and useful players.

The Khorne team is full of exotic skills, but completely lacking in bread-and-butter skills. Because of their lack of Frenzy, and having GAS access, the need for basic skills is felt most acutely by the Bloodletters. They are the "swing producers": the way you develop them will determine the character of the team. I like to start with Block, Dodge, but beyond that I am open-minded. I have found that Blodge is handy for protection and mobility, both of which suit their utility role on the team. I have not considered Leap, but would suggest that Leap combines better with Wrestle than with Block.

I am starting to wonder if Grab is maybe the ideal 3rd skill on Bloodletters (ahead of Guard), to improve the surfing potential of the team. It has other uses too, when it comes to path clearance and ball movement.

Hope that helps.

[Smeborg]

Here is my team after 14 matches. The win rate is falling, the last 5 matches have been: loss, win, loss, win, draw.

Bloodthirster: M-Blow, Guard (21 SPPs)
Herald: Block (7)
Herald: - (5)
Bloodletter: +AG, Dodge, Block (34)
Bloodletter: Block, Dodge (25)
Bloodletter: S-Hands, +MA (24)
Bloodletter: Block, Dodge (22)
Pit Fighter: S-Hands, Pass (18)
Pit Fighter: Wrestle (10)
Pit Fighter: Wrestle (8)
Pit Fighter: Wrestle (8)
Pit Fighter: Leader (6)
Pit Fighter: -
2RR, 6FF, 1AC/1CL, 220,000 in treasury, TV170

60% of the TDs are scored by the Bloodletters (even more of late). They get half the CAS too! The Pit Fighters are difficult to skill up beyond 1 skill. But their Wrestle works really well. I have been "lucky" so far on the CAS front, this had enabled me to retire the -MA Pit Fighter with Leader (it may surprise, but he was often a liability, especially on defense). Money dipped to 100,000 at one point, this is low (you need to be able to replace the Bloodthirster).

I feel the side is a bit unbalanced now, although I'm not sure that is through development mistakes. Guard as second skill on the Bloodthirster looks like the only clear mistake, I would now much prefer Stand Firm before Guard (he is too easy to isolate). I feel I have too many ball carriers on the team now, the S-Hands/+MA Bloodletter, the S-Hands/Pass Pit Fighter, and the +AG/Blodge Bloodletter. Sometimes I struggle to decide which to use for a drive! However, both S-Hands players were outstanding early on, they made an obvious contribution to the team's results. The +AG Bloodletter with Blodge is the star of the team.

The Bloodthirster, who was quite handy for the first 6-10 games, seems increasingly useless as the team has become developed. Like any Wild Animal, he is easy for any good opponent with a developed team to isolate or knock down. Recently, he had a 9-turn half (because of a Blitz!) in which he failed his Wild Animal roll 8 times. The one time he passed the roll, he rolled a double skull (although to be fair, he used a re-roll, passed the loner roll, and got IIRC a stun). Sadly, this is only somewhat worse than a typical half for him. Perhaps that's just how he is, good early, and poor later.

I am still undecided on the next skills for the Bloodletters and Heralds (who have finally started to develop, thanks to the chosen MVP in our league). The choice is between (a) Block, M-Blow on the Heralds, with Block, Dodge, Guard on the Bloodletters, or (b) Block, Guard on the Heralds, with Block, Dodge, Grab on the Bloodletters. I incline to (b) at the moment, but it is not a strong preference.

Khorne is not a "normal" team, and this applies also to the way it plays and develops over time. I am starting to feel that Khorne is like some kind of insect that goes through quite different stages of development in its life. Skills that are great early on may not look so good later - but perhaps they will shine again with the right enhancements. I am loth to retire non-injured players, so I will probably just battle on with what I have. The team continues to feel a RR and a player short (both problems could be solved by firing the Bloodthirster, not that I will do that). Players cannot be developed "at will", you have to just take whatever SPPs Nuffle grants in each match.

Games continue to be very sporting and rather wild for both coaches.

Hope that's of interest.

[plasmoid]

Hi Smeborg,
Probably solid advice to not frenzy up a bloodletter.
Anyway, finally had my first win with khorne, in a game where Nuffle was rather cruel to the opposing Slann team. I skilled 5 players(!) finally allowing me to Pick some stability skills and getting me up to a full roster of 11. Yay.

Anyway, I rolled a doubles with one khornegor/herald, and put my money where my mouth is with Leap. I hope to make my future opponents fear the 4+.
We'll see

Cheers
Martin

[Chris]

The OCC div 1 khorne team is doing well with no bloodthirster. Did have an excellent beast till it died in a game with me, but it seems to have done the team a world of good losing it and it hasn't been replaced.

[neverworking]

The OCC div 1 khorne team is doing well with no bloodthirster. Did have an excellent beast till it died in a game with me, but it seems to have done the team a world of good losing it and it hasn't been replaced.

I'm not entirely shocked to hear that. I played a long time without the bloodthirster and his addition had its issues and I wondered if the team was actually worse. Individually he was a monster, but collectively his wild animal adds to one of khorne's basics problems, the inability to maintain position. Mass frenzy has a tendency to get your (and your opponent's) team out of position and then you add this one giant TV player that you can't rely on positioning where you want him. The bloodthirster is undeniably fun, and a potential game changer against teams you might otherwise struggle to cope with, but in other games he felt like an extremely intimidating liability. (My team had a couple of strength boosts and a 5 guards before I added him so I had not normally had issues with being overpowered and I think he would have added more to the team if I didn't have that. )

[Smeborg]

The OCC div 1 khorne team is doing well with no bloodthirster. Did have an excellent beast till it died in a game with me, but it seems to have done the team a world of good losing it and it hasn't been replaced.

I'm not entirely shocked to hear that. I played a long time without the bloodthirster and his addition had its issues and I wondered if the team was actually worse. Individually he was a monster, but collectively his wild animal adds to one of khorne's basics problems, the inability to maintain position. Mass frenzy has a tendency to get your (and your opponent's) team out of position and then you add this one giant TV player that you can't rely on positioning where you want him. The bloodthirster is undeniably fun, and a potential game changer against teams you might otherwise struggle to cope with, but in other games he felt like an extremely intimidating liability. (My team had a couple of strength boosts and a 5 guards before I added him so I had not normally had issues with being overpowered and I think he would have added more to the team if I didn't have that. )

My feeling, having played both styles of team (with and without the Bloodthirster), is that the team is better early on with him, but better later without. Early on he sometimes won games by himself, this does not happen now. It does depend a little on the opponent, though, if you are up against a ST opponent, the team feels less naked with the Bloodthirster.

I get frustrated about every other game at not having another RR and another player. Both could be taken if I dropped the Bloodthirster. For long periods of each match, when you have a Bloodthirster it's like paying 20 or more points of TV in order to have 10 players on the pitch!

There are clearly different builds availabe to this team. That's not a bad thing.

All the best.

[plasmoid]

Smeborg said:

My feeling, having played both styles of team (with and without the Bloodthirster), is that the team is better early on with him, but better later without.

Personally, I'm not even that impressed with him early on. I mean, he's a minotard with a lot of bells and whistles, which is nice, but 180K is a lot of gold and TV. I'd rather have most of the 110-130K players in the game and a reroll.
In late Development, I figure, like most minotards, he becomes a liability. Especially on this particular team, where you already have insane ammounts of TV tied up in "blitz only" skills. It stands to reason that a big guy WHO will often need the team's Blitz action in order to even activate is putting further pressure on an already weak point for the team.

Cheers
Martin

[Fassbinder75]

I think part of the Bloodthirster's utility is simply fear factor. With MB he can clean up almost any piece on a 2d block and crack armour on a 7. He gives the team a higher potential ceiling than a small ball roster. Whether he delivers on his TV vs Heralds and Bloodletters is debatable, but they don't scare opponents nearly as much.