Necromantic Advise

[Grumbledook]

matt interesting post but where do you put the kicker zombie in each of those

would be more useful to use FG, WW, WI, GH, ZO instead of your nfl terms as well, would make it a LOT easier to make sense of

as for now I've given up ;]

[mattgslater]

matt interesting post but where do you put the kicker zombie in each of those

would be more useful to use FG, WW, WI, GH, ZO instead of your nfl terms as well, would make it a LOT easier to make sense of

as for now I've given up ;]

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-- -- -- --|-- -- Zf Zg FG -- --|-- -- -- --
-- -- WW --|-- WT -- -- -- -- Zk|-- -- WW --
-- FG -- --|GH -- -- -- -- WT --|-- GH -- --
or
-- -- -- --|-- -- Zf Zg FG -- --|-- -- -- --
-- -- FG --|-- WT -- -- -- -- Zk|-- -- WW --
-- WW -- --|GH -- -- -- -- WT --|-- GH -- --
or
-- -- -- --|-- -- Zf Zg FG -- --|-- -- -- --
-- -- WW --|-- WT -- -- -- -- Zk|-- WT WW --
-- FG -- --|GH -- -- -- -- GH --|-- -- -- --
or some variant on the above, depending on how you're structured (as noted above, you might set up your back 8 one square farther back).  On the left side, I'd probably put the Blodge WW on the outside, and the Block/Guard Golem on the inside, leaving the ST5 guy standing next to Guard boy (a tad risky against some teams; this is a situational strategy until you get Block).  If you're afraid to leave a WW on the corner, then use a Wight.
-- -- -- --|-- -- Zf Zg FG -- --|-- -- -- --
-- -- FG --|-- WT -- -- -- -- Zk|-- -- WW --
-- WT -- --|WW -- -- -- -- GH --|-- GH -- --

[Grumbledook]

cheers dude

[Carnis]

Interesting that Matt's defence lineups are "new" to these forums?

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-- -- -- --|-- -- LL LL LL -- --|-- -- -- --
-- -- CA --|-- BL -- -- -- BL --|-- CA -- --
-- BL -- --|CA -- -- -- -- -- CA|-- -- BL -- 

That's the standard defence you see over in FUMBBL. Some coaches ofc vary according to opponent. But the basic idea is 3 linemen with prerably blodge/guard/ss type skills. Blitzers on the positions that are most likely to get blitzed (Blitzing those catchers will not create an opening).

Works for any team. Can use what matt described as well, it's basicly the same defence, but leaves a slightly bigger hole in the middle after blitzing.

This can be altered accordingly if you have players with standfirm or sidestep, with sideliners swapping places as below:

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-- -- -- --|-- -- LL LL LL -- --|-- -- -- --
-- BL -- --|-- BL -- -- -- BL --|-- -- BL --
-- -- CA --|CA -- -- -- -- -- CA|-- CA -- -- 

The weakness is, if your positioners are slow, then you need to build deeper and this most likely leaves an opening in the middle. Also specialist teams like lizardmen may set up entirely different, e.g. like this:

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-- -- -- --|SS -- -- KK -- -- SS|-- -- -- --
-- -- -- --|-- -- -- -- -- -- --|-- -- -- --
-- -- -- SS|-- -- SS -- -- SS --|-- SS -- --
-- -- -- --|-- ss ss -- ss ss --|-- -- -- -- 

[Grumbledook]

not new to the forums I've just not played with necros much so wondered how he was setting them up with all the positionals like that

[Carnis]

not new to the forums I've just not played with necros much so wondered how he was setting them up with all the positionals like that

Ok.

That being said, I don't think matt's defence really works that well for Necroes. The problem with his setup is the right flank with the GH + WW is weakish, a blitz on the were (& knockdown if he has SS, or push/surf, if he does not) will create an easy opening and the left flank players will be down for the count (FGs are SLOW, wights can't reliably dodge and LOS zombies will take forever to recover, and if you aren't forcing your opponent down the middle, then you aren't likely to get those zombies back in (relevant) action before turn4.

Lictor's seems solid though, especially if the FG's have block/Grab etc. (and dodge ofc)

[mattgslater]

Interesting that Matt's defence lineups are "new" to these forums?

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-- -- -- --|-- -- LL LL LL -- --|-- -- -- --
-- -- CA --|-- BL -- -- -- BL --|-- CA -- --
-- BL -- --|CA -- -- -- -- -- CA|-- -- BL -- 

That's the standard defence you see over in FUMBBL.

Yep, that's the standard. The variant is a little different in a few places.

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-- -- -- --|-- -- LL LL LL -- --|-- -- -- --
-- BL -- --|-- BL -- -- -- BL --|-- -- BL --
-- -- CA --|CA -- -- -- -- -- CA|-- CA -- -- 

Not quite... the Catchers aren't protected in this format. You need to move the Blitzers on the inside out one square, which means you need to move the Catchers inside one to keep the opponent from opening an interior lane. Moving the backers out next to the WZ has the added advantage that it makes chainpushes very difficult.

That being said, I don't think matt's defence really works that well for Necroes. The problem with his setup is the right flank with the GH + WW is weakish

That's why SS is so critical. If you're pushed and knocked down, fall along the sidelines. Then there's no way in. If you don't have SS on that right corner (and SF, SS or Fend on your line-ends), you should not attempt this defense. I built the lopsided bit for Orcs, and the symmetrical version for Pro Elves, who have an easy time spamming SS across the line and both WZs.

[Digger Goreman]

I think we need to define what we want out of a defense.... What may be acceptable to one, may not be acceptable to others.... If at all possible, I'm not giving up better than a 1d6 blitz on anyone! I'm also wary of unsupported positionals....

One assumption in this is "no skill-ups", so a starting team.... FGs anchor the wings and, short of Juggernaut, can't be surfed.... Wights/Weres provide support, and are supported.... If you'd prefer to protect the Weres... then swap out with ghouls.... Once I get a fourth, "kick" zombie I bench one of the ghouls on defense....

You could back up the Werewolves one square and take a 1d6 blitz against the Wight (ya! Suck it up!!! )....

[mattgslater]

I think we need to define what we want out of a defense.... What may be acceptable to one, may not be acceptable to others.... If at all possible, I'm not giving up better than a 1d6 blitz on anyone! I'm also wary of unsupported positionals....

SS is built-in support. AFAIK, there's no way to ensure you won't get hit 4x with 2d, minimum, on a mostly-ST3 team. If you're worried about giving up 3d hits to ST5, either give him Blodge (91:125 kd:not = effective deterrent) or set a Guard up next to the Side Stepper, but most opponents won't blitz a Side Stepper with a big guy (losing the blitz action on an anti-skill roll of 1) just to get 3d, and if they do they're probably playing a strategy they hadn't gamed out and will be at a disadvantage as the drive stretches on (presuming they don't take out your Were).

One assumption in this is "no skill-ups", so a starting team....

In that case, I like Lictor's format. But that's got to be a 1.1M starting team, as you can't get all that stuff and still have even vaguely-sufficient TRR on 1M; even on 1.1M it's common to see only one Ghoul. The reality is that it's probably not a starting team in a league, though it could be a young team. I certainly wouldn't morph Necro into an inverted backfield without the requisite skills, which should take 5-15 games to build (depending on how you do it and how successful/lucky you are; doubles on a Wight or a couple well-placed MVPs could speed it up, for example, and a dead Were could put you back a few games even if you have the cash to replace him).

In a slightly developed league, even a couple skills will make Lictor's setup a whole lot stronger against gimmicks. One guy with Frenzy (minimally) or one with Frenzy and one with Grab (optimally) will get chainpushes sufficient to take out the Wight and WW with 2d on the strong side, and will then easily be able to blitz the Ghoul on that side to set up a cage about three in (read: perfect position for a 4-turner), or run a spread of receivers who will be nigh-uncoverable for a 2-turner (though the latter may require a short pass if you have a kicker or get lucky on the lie, so rookie elves might struggle a tad if they don't run Throwers and can't TRR the pass).

If I were looking to use the conventional BB 3-4 backfield (I call it the "Charlie Brown" 'cause it looks like the squiggly line on his shirt), I'd either bunch the line or move the back 8 one square farther back. Lictor's deep variant IMO is only clearly inferior if the opponent is outmatched, because it discourages early scoring, which stunts your growth in a league with many mixed levels. If you're going for the 2-1, you either need to set the d-line away from the backfield a bit, or flood the d-line with positioning skills.

[Lictor]

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-- -- -- -- | Zo -- -- Zo -- -- Zo | -- -- -- --
-- -- -- -- | -- -- -- -- -- -- -- | -- -- -- --
-- FG -- -- | -- -- -- -- -- -- -- | -- -- FG --
-- -- -- -- | Wt -- -- Gh -- -- Wt | -- -- -- --
-- -- -- -- | -- -- -- -- -- -- -- | -- -- -- --
-- -- -- -- | -- -- -- -- -- -- -- | -- -- -- --
-- -- -- -- | Ww -- -- Gh -- -- Ww | -- -- -- --
-- -- -- -- | -- -- -- -- -- -- -- | -- -- -- --

I have run this set up with Wood Elves with surprising affectiveness, mostly because I think Coaches don't ever see it. I used it only once with my Necro (I was against a very new player) so my data is also far from reliable but if you have the patience to watch your coach set something against this without their heads imploding it's an interesting experiment.

IMO this set up WILL NOT WORK against fast teams but the grindy teams have struggled with it with my squishy W'Elves so I might have to experiment with the more experienced coaches to see what happens.

[Skipper]

I can't see my using Kick on any of the positionals, Kick is awesome and I want it and if i had to, it would be best on my Ghouls as they are set furthest back but one is already set to be a carrier (Block, SH <- SS and Fend to come barring better rolls) and the other is Ag 4 which makes giving him Kick a valid reason to Kick me in some back alley.

You might pull a ghoul to the sideline on defense and put a kick zombie in the backfield right behind the LOS. This allows all your defensive positionals to be in play and will protect one of your ghouls, the most scoreing oreinted, till you are recieving the ball.


Edit: Whoops, this was mentioned later in the thread.

[Digger Goreman]

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-- -- -- -- | Zo -- -- Zo -- -- Zo | -- -- -- --
-- -- -- -- | -- -- -- -- -- -- -- | -- -- -- --
-- FG -- -- | -- -- -- -- -- -- -- | -- -- FG --
-- -- -- -- | Wt -- -- Gh -- -- Wt | -- -- -- --
-- -- -- -- | -- -- -- -- -- -- -- | -- -- -- --
-- -- -- -- | -- -- -- -- -- -- -- | -- -- -- --
-- -- -- -- | Ww -- -- Gh -- -- Ww | -- -- -- --
-- -- -- -- | -- -- -- -- -- -- -- | -- -- -- --

My inclination would be to set up heavily to one side and down the FG, then flood the wing.... Has this happened in the past?

[mattgslater]

Me too. Taking out the Flesh Golem is a 15/16 proposition if you care enough to burn a TRR.

That deep setup will leave you free to apply good coverage, and will force the opponent to pick a direction, both of which are good against Wood Elves. I could tear that up with Pro Elves, though: just put two Catchers in the backfield and cover a couple of defenders on the strong-side. One guy gets blitzed anyway, and the other one scores no matter how well you cover him.