Ogre guide

[trentusdementus]

It doesn't.

!?
Please explain your statement. What rule set are you playing with?

LRB6.0 I believe, please explain why an AG4 Ogre throw his team mate better than an AG2 Ogre (both with Strong Arm)

Tackle zones.

[Greyhound]

You are not giving us much in each post are you?

1 Tackle Zone: -1 to TTM:
* a 2 fails regardless of AG (even AG6 wouldn't cut it)
* a 3+ is always a success regardless of AG

2 Tackle Zones: -2 to TTM:
* a 2 fails regardless of AG
* a 3 fails regardless of AG
* a 4+ is always a success regardless of AG

3 Tackle Zones: -3 to TTM:
* a 2 fails regardless of AG
* a 3 fails regardless of AG
* a 4 fails regardless of AG
* a 5+ is always a success regardless of AG

I mean I just don't see it. Remember that AG helps get accurate passes, and TTM is never accurate. But please explain; you must know BB much better than me, I just started, obviously I missed something.

[narg]

Strong Arm on the +Agi Ogre! It really makes throwing a viable strategy for the team since the snotlings can go anywhere. Plus, Strong Arm makes all TTM 2+ to throw if you aren't stuck in a tacklezone or two...

I thought AG had little to no benefit for throwing team mates.

Maybe there's been a misunderstanding here?
+AG and strong arm allow you to do a passing game (not TTM, just passing game) if you combine it with snotlings with catch or diving catch, as they're highly mobile they can go through the opponent's defense and then your ball-carrying ogre can throw the ball to them.
In my team I've got an ogre with sure hands and strong arm, I use him primarily as a ball-carrier. I've tried a passing game as well (I've got a snotling with catch) but predictably, it hasn't been very successful.

[TheDoctor]

My AG3/Strong Arm Ogre really does open up the option to throw a pass every now and then, but you can't really do a passing game since he's still not very good at passing (just a little better than the rest) and the Bonehead makes him somewhat unreliable. In addition to that, the MA5 on everyone won't let you outrun any opposing players (except for maybe dwarves ) and you can't just throw a Snotling downfield and then pass the ball to him in one turn since both are passing actions.

Still you get the option to throw a pass and sometimes that can make the difference since Blood Bowl is all about having options, isn't it?!

[Cyris]

So, I'm really confused by TTM as well, so I'm looking to the LRB for clarification.

Throw Team-Mate (edited) (Extraordinary)
...The pass is worked out exactly the same as the player with Throw Team-Mate passing a ball, except the player must subtract 1 from the D6 roll when he passes the player, fumbles are not automatically turnovers, and Long Pass or Long Bomb range passes are not possible. In addition, accurate passes are treated instead as inaccurate passes thus scattering the player three times as players are heavier and harder to pass than a ball.

Does this mean Quick Pass gets a +1 and a -1, leaving it a net of +0?
Does Short Pass get a -1, leaving it at -1?

Assuming those are both correct, then I see now that:
1- +AGI does nothing to help
2- Strong Arm makes Short Pass go from a 4/6 success rate, to a 5/6, regardless of AGI, and does not effect Quick Pass range at all

So, in conclusion, I'm seeing no value of +AGI on an Ogre for TTM.

[narg]

So, in conclusion, I'm seeing no value of +AGI on an Ogre for TTM.

Err you're correct but I think that people are talking past each other here, as far as I can see nobody in this thread's been saying that +AG works with TTM, some people are just saying that +AG and strong arm allow ogres not to be too awful at a passing game. As in, throwing the ball, not a snotling. And to throw the ball, +AG helps. I know that throwing a ball (not a snotling) with an ogre is a weird concept but if you have a team reroll handy, the ogre has strong arm and +AG and the snotling has catch then it's not actually that crazy.

[Cyris]

I was attempting to speak as clearly as possible. I was very confused how TTM worked, as I assumed +AGI helped it. A number of posters have stated that +AGI does not help TTM without explaining, so I took it upon myself to dig a bit. I read the LRB and posted what I think an accurate analysis of it was. I then stated that +AGI does not make TTM better. I did not imply that +AGI was bad on an Ogre, nor did I comment on the viability of an Ogre quarterback. If my comments were seen as anything besides a quest for understanding, whops!

[Greyhound]

LRB6.0 I believe, please explain why an AG4 Ogre throw his team mate better than an AG2 Ogre (both with Strong Arm)

Tackle zones.

All good then, we debunked the TTM myth of AG, and the TZ myth as well. Now if you want to throw the ball go ahead, however with just AG and no sure hands/pass i wouldn't put strong arm on this guy. "just" AG3 doesn't cut it to make him the passer.
Until he levels up some more he's more likely to use his AG to pick-up or receive a hand off then run down the field.

[narg]

do if AG3 is, as I thought, useless to throw team mates, why not give Strong arm to another Ogre, and make this one a ball carrier:

- Break Tackle (to keep the ball moving)
- Juggernaut (for the important Blitz-score in turn
- sure Hands on double.

I agree with break tackle and sure hands but I'd give strong arm before juggernaut here.
If you develop them according to the guide you get four regular ogres, one killer and one thrower, and as there's a synergy between +AG and strong arm (but not on TTM as it's been made very clear) it's better to develop this one as a thrower, strong arm would be less useful on another ogre. Unless you plan to exclusively use this ogre as a ball-carrier and you decide to give strong arm to another one only for TTM, but I think that it reduces your options as by combining +1AG and strong arm on the same player you give yourself the option of having a passing game.

By the way I was thinking about combining an ogre with strong arm with a snotling with diving catch. On a 2+ you don't fumble, and then you just pray that the ball doesn't scatter too far so that the snotling with diving catch gets the ball. Did anyone try that? On paper it doesn't look too bad. To have a decent chance at running the ball with an ogre you need a whole 8 turn drive, when you have just one turn to score you can throw a snotling, but when the opponent scores let's say on turn six and you have three turns to score then such a passing game might be the best alternative.
I'm more or less trying that in my team but I only got an ogre with strong arm in the game before last and in the last game it was Pouring Rain so definitely not optimal to try it...

[Greyhound]

I can see it work in theory. In practice there is so much fail between an classic passer/catcher (if you exclude the elf) that I wouldn't want to add extra strain (bonehead, short pass) to the concept.
In my experience the passing game works if you can sustain having the catcher in the TD reach for a whole turn. A snot does not strike me as the strongest contender to sit on his own for a turn in the back field. If you can build a cage for him there, then you probably cracked the defence already.

Go ahead and tell us if it works!

[TheDoctor]

I agree with Greyhound. Doing an inaccurate pass with an Ogre to a Diving Catch Snotling is more of a desperation play than a planned tactic. The chance of an inaccurate pass landing in or around the target square is 46,85 %, which is not that much. Combine that with the other risks (bonehead, interception, fumble, catch) and you really have the odds against you.
Anyway, if that play DOES work... it would be a moment of pure joy! So why not try and go for it anyway?!

[narg]

I agree with Greyhound. Doing an inaccurate pass with an Ogre to a Diving Catch Snotling is more of a desperation play than a planned tactic.

The odds aren't good but they're better than with TTM as if you're lucky enough to roll a 4+ the pass is actually accurate and then the catch succeeds on a 2+ only. On top of that you don't risk killing one of your own snotlings (edit: and you have the hope of getting 1SPP on your ogre if the pass is accurate! What's not to like).
But sure Plan A is to run the ball, Plan B is to do a hand-off, and this would be Plan C, just before TTM. And when you're down to Plan C it means that you must be fairly desperate indeed. So far I scored most of my tds by running the ball, a few with hand-offs, one with TTM and none with a pass, but as I said I only got strong arm recently so I haven't had the time to test it yet.

Anyway, if that play DOES work... it would be a moment of pure joy! So why not try and go for it anyway?!

That's the spirit! ;o)

[plasmoid]

Greyhound said:

A snot does not strike me as the strongest contender to sit on his own for a turn in the back field.

Try 2!
They're slippery little buggers - so one eats dirt and the other slips into the EZ for the reception.

[mattgslater]

Ogre QP or SP w/SA to DC Snotling
16.7% to hold on to ball
6.5% to throw inaccurate completion assuming Snotty has no support.
34.7% to throw a Comp
42.1% to turnover

That's about the same odds of maintaining possession as breaking AV on AV7 with Mighty Blow. It's the same odds to complete your pass as breaking AV8 with Mighty Blow.

[Greyhound]

Greyhound said:

A snot does not strike me as the strongest contender to sit on his own for a turn in the back field.

Try 2!
They're slippery little buggers - so one eats dirt and the other slips into the EZ for the reception.

Not against me, I favour diving tackle, and they die miserable death when they try to doge at 4+