would you turn down Stats if you had too many?

[narg]

Narg, you and I have diametrically opposite thinking on Orcs. Here's what I do.
!

Well it's not diametrically opposed as you agree as well to ignore 10-11 on BOB and Troll, and I said as well to take everything on the thrower so the only difference is on the blitzers. For the blitzers I really think that apart from one +AG you should focus on ST skills. In my Norse team I turned down a +AG on a berserker in favour of piling on and I haven't regretted it; in my orc team I've taken a +AG on a blitzer and so far my experience with it has been mixed (the player already had mighty blow so maybe that piling on would have been better - no synergies between +AG and mighty blow).
And you didn't mention linemen. +ST on them is obviously great, but I think that +MA or +AG are wasted on them, they're made to be LOS fodder, not stars (although as I said if it's your team's first +AG you can turn the lineman into the main ball carrier and then maybe just fire the thrower - one AG4 guy on the team is great, even if it's a lineman).

As far as turning down +ST on a Wood Elf Catcher, I think that's crazy talk. For 140k you have a third WD!

You might be right here. +ST really looked crappy on the gutter runners, by extension I thought it would be the same on other ST2 players but I might be wrong here. I sure know that a ST4 war dancer would scare me a lot more than a ST3 catcher.

[Carnis]

If you lose 6 games in a row with three +ST gutter runners, you are a crap player imo .

3x 9347 block/dodge/ss is insanely hard to stop..

[mattgslater]

I have two different offenses with Orcs; the first one is for when I don't have any +AG, and the second is for when I have at least one. By that point, I try to build a Thrower as a retriever to get the ball to +AG guy, who starts out behind the blitz line, in the "ace fullback" position. This guy then delivers the ball to the designated scorer, after the cage has formed downfield. +AG on a Thrower is best, as he has Pass and can get the ball into the cage more readily. This way, you never have to cage up in your own half, and OSPT is guaranteed to work, so all you have to do is focus on not getting cracked.

There's nice synergy between Mighty Blow and AG4, by the way. Build him as a hunter/marker, getting Stand Firm and Tackle, and he's great to shut down out routes and hose speedsters. On offense, after you pass with your Ace, he's a safety, and MB really lets him lay the wood. Those types of players make a lot of blitzes, and hit a lot of speedy positionals.

As far as the three +ST Gutter Runners, that may be one too many, but that doesn't mean you should ignore +ST on a Gutter Runner. +ST on one GR is incredibly disruptive, but how many blitzes can you make? I can see two, as they're the only A-access players, so getting Block and SS on one +ST guy makes for a good (if overpriced) inverted winger, lets you get maximum mileage from the Rat Ogre as a strong midfielder in a half-zig, and makes it easier to position a hunter-type Stormvermin. But if you have a conventionally squishy Skaven DLOS, then you're only getting so much value out of thinking like an elf, you know? The advantage to Skaven is that they can defend without containing. I'd only think that build to be unequivocally worth its salt if I had a number of Wrestle/Fend linos or some other way to keep my LOS game intact.

And yeah, if you lose six in a row, it's not because of a couple improvement selections.

[Funksultan]

That was some of my thoughts too. The 50K or 20k extra to make a ST2 player 'average' imo is daft.

The ST2 player is not supposed to be in a fight.

ST5 players with extra ST is kind of moot, they won't use this benefit as much as taking a double.

And many of these 'top tier team' suffer from runaway TV, so why make it worse. Higher the TV and you begin to watch the chainsaws come out to cut you down!

Try telling competitive blood bowl players to NOT throw blocks on your ST2 runners, see how that works out.

+ST is a HUGE upgrade to many st2 players (for example, gutter runners, elf/human catchers, etc).

No, they aren't supposed to be in the middle of a scrum, but they -are- supposed to be dashing out with the ball (not always into the end zone) or moving away from other players into a catch/score position.

The difference between ST2 and ST3 is the difference between that TD-stopping blitzer getting a 2 die block vs a 1 die, or a 1/2 die in the case of an ST2 "interceptor" blitzer (those st2 wrestle/strip guys we all love so much). Additionally, the dreaded 3-die block is fairly easy to achieve against a straying ST2, and quite difficult against ST3.

Don't get me wrong, there are several +ST upgrades that probably aren't worth the TV (halflings) but for the most part... "TAKE THE +ST". (trademark TBB)

[mattgslater]

And you didn't mention linemen. +ST on them is obviously great, but I think that +MA or +AG are wasted on them, they're made to be LOS fodder, not stars (although as I said if it's your team's first +AG you can turn the lineman into the main ball carrier and then maybe just fire the thrower - one AG4 guy on the team is great, even if it's a lineman).

LOS fodder is for teams that can't dominate the LOS on both sides of the ball. An Orc's idea of "LOS fodder" is ST4/5 with a healthy mix of Block, Stand Firm, Guard and Mighty Blow. "Go ahead, chew on that 'fodder' for a bit," says the Orc defense to the receiving team. That's BOB/Troll territory; an Orc Lineman is an interim solution, a bit player, a backup.

I generally don't do much with Orc Linemen: my back four are two Throwers, one Lineman and one Goblin. Usually the lino is a professional benchwarmer or a target for Dirty Player. On a rookie Lineman, I'd ignore 10 and take +ST on a 12 (which would be bad news for the playing-time aspirations of the Goblin). On an 11, it would depend on what else I had. If that was my only 11, or if I'd taken some damage (like a dead Thrower or Blitzer), I might take +AG, but if I had a +AG guy and all my skill players intact, I'd take Dirty Player. MA5 doesn't do well with AG4, unless it's on a P-access player. If I were the kind of coach who ran three Linemen and a Thrower (this used to be me), then I'd take +AG or +ST at any opportunity, except maybe on my Dirty Player. Nothing, NOTHING would ever get me to fire my (healthy) Thrower, though: he's an extra 2 squares of movement on offense, and an extra skill on a Blitzer or AG4 Lineman who doesn't have to think about picking up the ball.

[narg]

If you lose 6 games in a row with three +ST gutter runners, you are a crap player imo .

3x 9347 block/dodge/ss is insanely hard to stop..

I said that out of memory. Just rechecked and he had a bad series of four losses and one tie out of six games (that's were the six came from) and he otherwise has a very decent overall win rate of 62% which is way above average for a skaven team. Guys sometimes it just happens, even to good players, don't tell me you never have bad series of losses. But anyway he had this bad series when the three +ST gutter runners were there, maybe happenstance, maybe bloated TV that gave his opponents too many inducements and "helped" with the bad luck. Carnis I'll PM you his team and match record. I mean really, when you have a TV of 2,200 including three +ST gutter runners and you play against a bash team that has mass guard + mighty blow AND a wizard, how do you expect to win? He can just cage the ball and slaughter your team and there's no way your ST3 gutter runner can do anything about it and with the wizard he can take the ball off you and start again.

I really don't think that +ST on a ST2 catcher is a game-changer but who knows, maybe it's because I haven't played against enough of them. Anyway as I already said I never played a team with such players so I don't know what it's like to play with a +ST ST2 player, but when I play against a team that has some it doesn't scare me at all. I don't think it breaks game balance the way a ST4 player does, or an AG4 player on an AG3 team.

I have two different offenses with Orcs [...]

Right I'm not sure I completely got that but my opinion is that orcs are best played without subtlety with just a cage. For me the ideal orc team has one ball carrier with AG4 blodge sure hands, and the rest of the team loaded with ST skills, so that's why I think that you shouldn't take MA or AG on blitzers (again, apart from maybe the one +AG) as it bloats TV and reduces bash potential. I mean ideally the only agility roll you want to make is to pick up the ball, so then why would you need more than one player with +AG? The others are supposed to block, not dodge around. And taking +MA on an orc blitzer instead of say mighty blow increases TV and reduces damage potential, what's the point?

[mattgslater]

Spreading the love accelerates development. You should try it sometime. The thing that separates Orcs and Chaos from the other bash teams is the ease they have distributing the ball and the SPP among players with multicategory access, much like Elves and Humans. After all, a Comp and a TD is worth two Casualties.

But yeah, one reason I like to build a more mobile (Morky?) Orc team is that they tend to have an easier time getting the damage skills spread around. A skill that gets you more mobility on a killer player also helps you deal more damage. I do agree that you need to spam the Mighty Blow about in order to get maximum killy potential; in my book, it's a top-two skill on at least three Blitzers, and a #1 on normal rolls for the first two. But still, the added mobility and versatility of AG4 or MA7 is worth a little stop on the way, especially as it accelerates the development of your other players.

[Krulfang]

Orcs should have some subtlety- they just shouldn't rely on it completely. I find opponents are expecting the cage/smash 'em up, and while you should still do that, sneaky ploys can help out. If you always cage up, plod down the field, and have the same ball carrier as I did my first few (many) games you'll end up with one great thrower and not much else. You've got to diversify for developments sake and to keep your opponent guessing.

+Ag helps in most cases, and one of my best pieces was a Blitzer that got +AG and then +MV later on.

[mattgslater]

One thing +AG is really good for is securing the ball out of blitzing range, then delivering it to the cage once you and the defense have hashed out where the cage will be. This lets you identify a soft spot in the first two turns, while you play keep-away, and then get the ball far forward of where your cage would have otherwise started. Not only are downfield cages easier to get into scoring range, they're easier to protect and give you more chances to recover if cracked. You also get to deal more damage, because a downfield cage usually comes with its own partitioning effect. You have to build for it, though; the "ace" offense is typically an air-team gimmick, and it takes an AG4 player to pull it off properly (or a Human Catcher with Diving Catch). It also only works if you have enough Guard and SF to run a very solid cage, as failed catches are a hazard the same way they are with handoffs.

I once had a Thrower with AG4, Accurate and Safe Throw. That guy could deliver the ball into the cage from anywhere.

[TuernRedvenom]

In answer to your above points, usually any team would have a better blitzer than the +ST catcher (war dancer, storm vermin etc); in my experience it's a bad idea to mark players with AV7 catchers, if I had the choice I'd prefer to do that with tougher or cheaper players; and the +ST catcher isn't supposed to be the ball carrier in the first place.

First of all I disagree that a Storm Vermin is a better blitzer then a +STR Gutter Runner. The really important blitzes for skaven are those where you're blitzing his backfield after a deep kick or blitz kickoff event. The Storm Vermin usually won't even get there because he has no MA 9, no AG 4 and no Dodge. He's also easy to pin down.
Second, if the rules allowed you to take 3 wardancers, would you skip on the third because you already have 2? I certainly wouldn't. Wardancers can get out of position or injured. The more fast, agile blitzers you have the better.
Marking players: gutters and catchers often get skilled this way: Block, Side Step, Diving Tackle. You don't use these guys to mark anything every turn but key targets at key moments. They're great for shutting down receivers (this build is better IMO then the pass block build because not everyone passes) and pinning down ball carriers or their support after a deep kick. Obviously they shouldn't be used to man mark a killer a lineman out of the drive...
Why shouldn't the +STR player be carrying the ball? In certain situatians that's the best way to proceed.

In terms of number of players that you force your opponent to use it's regularly irrelevant as well, because of mass guard or just because the opponent is blitzing with a ST4 player anyway. If such a team plays against a mass guard chaos team, chances are that the chaos coach wouldn't even notice once in the whole game.

Mass guard is of no use in the open, where these guys do their important stuff. A str 4 player that blitzes all the time can be shut down with a cheap marker. The chaos example you make isn't correct, the chaos player won't have much tackle (and these should be priority targets for you) so he'll try to set up 3 die blitzes. Just one assist and he's there vs STR 2. On a str 3 player he'll need 3 assists!

[edit: everybody agrees that going from ST3 to ST4 is great and everybody agrees that going from ST1 to ST2 as for snotlings is useless - logically it would then follow that an increase from ST2 to ST3 should have an intermediate effect so I think that my position makes sense...]

The reason you don't take it on a snotling is because his other stats are pure crap as well. He can't take block on a regular roll moves only 5, has only 5 armour and only has 3 AG. It's a lot of TV quickly heading towards the injury box. That certainly isn't the case for a +STR Wood Elf Catcher for example.
I feel +1 STR is a lot more powerfull on a Gutter Runner then on a Linerat.

[Ullis]

I feel +1 STR is a lot more powerfull on a Gutter Runner then on a Linerat.

I agree completely with this. Plus if you roll doubles and get Horns or another +ST you have a gutter runner who blitzes at ST4!

[narg]

I feel +1 STR is a lot more powerfull on a Gutter Runner then on a Linerat.

Anyway I'm open-minded about this and ready to admit that my position might be due to a lack of experience; after all, it's not as if teams with +ST catchers are a common occurence and on just a few games many other factors can influence the outcome of the game.

But wouldn't it be better to give let's say two heads or big hand to a gutter runner on a double 6? I think they don't make great blockers and are much better at ball retrieval, so why not develop them in that role? It lowers TV and might be more effective. Re the elf catcher I thought about it and indeed I don't really see better skills to give although I still don't think it makes an awesome player (still just ST3 and AV7).

[Carnis]

But wouldn't it be better to give let's say two heads or big hand to a gutter runner on a double 6? I think they don't make great blockers and are much better at ball retrieval, so why not develop them in that role? It lowers TV and might be more effective. Re the elf catcher I thought about it and indeed I don't really see better skills to give although I still don't think it makes an awesome player (still just ST3 and AV7).

Save 20k in TV, to get a +1 to dodge, versus getting 1die against ST3 backfield blitzes or 2die with 1 assist? No comparison really. Also nothing better at keeping gutters alive than +1 ST, the number of 3die blocks people get vs ST2 & ST3 are extremely different.

There's never any contest to +ST, maybe on a snotling.. But even a goblin who gets 2 +ST will be 2die blitzing to cages while ignoring tacklezones..

[Greyhound]

Ok what about +AG, if it was available on tap for a team with AG3 (human/orc/norse/undead for instance) but with no AG-skill access.
So basically you have no dodge skill, no catch skill but the awesome AG4 instead.

Would you actually buy 8x AG+ for a total of 320TV? (and at the cost of moving the next 8 skills for these players one range above)
I think 1 to 3 is a no brainer, especially if we're talking about blitzers or throwers, but I don't think 8 is worth it. Where is the thin line?

[mattgslater]

Three. That's how many +AG guys you're almost certain to get great mileage out of. An ace, an outlet and a spare on offense, and on defense two mobile guys and a benchwarmer/O-specialist. Much more than that may be a waste. Except on Stunties and Slann. Then there's no limit.