Orc with AG4 meets CLAW team

[TuernRedvenom]

... and my beloved SF that I got to help me squish elves more efficiently is now keeping me in the thick of a fight that I don't wanna be in.

Almost all skill use (and use of SF certainly is) is optional.

[mattgslater]

Funksultan, I don't know what to say. I love using Stand Firm against bash teams. Love it! It means they can't push to get into position for more assists, and they can't play any kinds of partitioning games. Guard won't do that. If you have a few Guard players and a high-ST list like Orcs, then you should get 2d on all (or almost all) your blocks. If your opponent is a similar team, with a few (or several) Guard players, they too will get 2d on all or almost all their blocks.

My experience is that the difference comes in when one side doesn't have enough Guard to play its offensive strategy against the other side. That doesn't necessarily mean matching the other guy Guard for Guard, unless you're talking about very young teams with just a few skills. Or you're playing Dwarfs, with no +ST and no ability to reposition.

[narg]

Funksultan, I don't know what to say. I love using Stand Firm against bash teams. Love it! It means they can't push to get into position for more assists, and they can't play any kinds of partitioning games. Guard won't do that. If you have a few Guard players and a high-ST list like Orcs, then you should get 2d on all (or almost all) your blocks. If your opponent is a similar team, with a few (or several) Guard players, they too will get 2d on all or almost all their blocks.

Well, if the opponent has more guard and +ST than you and sends his whole team to contact you will get "asphyxiated"; he gets 2d on all his blocks while you're at 2d against on all your blocks. In a war like that having stand firm is great as you can't be pushed away and you'll still give your guard assist; but if you take stand firm without having guard then your player is useless, which is why in my orc team in hindsight I should have put more guard instead of stand firm (let's say 8 guards and 2 stand firms would have been better I think, with the stand firm players already having guard). When you play a bash team there's nothing worse than being forced to dodge out of contact (unless you have mass +AG like Greyhound), and so this is why I don't get why you say that orc teams shouldn't get more than 5 guards...

[mattgslater]

Well, if the opponent has more guard and +ST than you and sends his whole team to contact you will get "asphyxiated"; he gets 2d on all his blocks while you're at 2d against on all your blocks.

Only if you get out-positioned. I've never made a 2d-against block with Orcs, and only once or twice in thousands of games passed up a block because I couldn't figure out how to get better odds than 2d against, and I don't think I've ever dodged away from contact with an AV9 player unless I had some objective with the Move action, though I could be wrong about that.

And what's this about more +ST? I thought we were talking about Orcs. Certainly, bash teams that don't rely on ST need more Guard. Maybe we should discuss that in a Dwarf or Amazon thread, but I suspect there wouldn't be much to talk about. Those teams need assists to get 2d blocks, and Guard is how they get them. The reason I don't think Orcs or Chaos need a lot of Guard is that they always have one guy who can open up the chain on a 2d hit, because of his +ST.

With Orc-on-Orc violence, it's all about matchups. The key is having the right guy making the right hit from the right place at the right time. There's always some place to attack, to build the chains off of. Guard makes the matchup game a little more forgiving, and SF expands your vocabulary of techniques in the matchup game. Which is better? Maybe that's a function of coaching. Certainly, nobody disputes that having both is very nice.

As far as not fearing the non-bash strategy, I'm not so sure. In AV9 I trust. Fearing injuries is for elves and cowards. What I fear is losing. And non-bash teams can give you those L's the same way that bash teams can. So you have to build your skill set to handle both, with the same skills. In my mind, that means my first priorities are a little Guard, and a lot of damage and positioning skills. Among other things, having a ton of SF/SS and MB means you can get away with less Tackle, leaving you one or two more skills to focus on killer skills.

[narg]

Only if you get out-positioned. I've never made a 2d-against block with Orcs, and only once or twice in thousands of games passed up a block because I couldn't figure out how to get better odds than 2d against, and I don't think I've ever dodged away from contact with an AV9 player unless I had some objective with the Move action, though I could be wrong about that.

So you never ever got outgunned in thousands of games? You never happened to have a fairly new orc team playing against an experienced orc / chaos / nurgle / whatever team that had mass guard while you didn't?

Not sure I get the part about getting out-positioned, unless your players are just running away and let the opponent score surely you have to let your players fairly close to his to prevent his cage from moving and such and then he can just go to contact which gives you three choices: dodge away, block at 2d against or stay there and wait to be bashed. You can get the advantage on a small section of the pitch but overall if he's got significantly more guard and +ST he's bound to be dominating the pitch, with more 2d blocks in his favour than in yours. I mean in that case you're the clear underdog, so to win you'd need to completely out-coach him, with lucky rolls, crowd-surfs, fouls, etc; at equal level the coach with more guard is just bound to slaughter the other.

[mattgslater]

It's a game of squares, man. If you have the positional advantage, you'll get the assists. One assist is not usually that hard. Yes, you can get hosed by getting out-Guarded. But if you do, it's your fault, at least if you're not a humongous underdog.

As far as the 1/2d block thing goes, I'm just talking Orcs. FWIW, I've yet to play a 2M Orc team with a 1M Orc team, as a large portion of my BB history is scheduled seasons, where teams tend to face each other at similar points in their development (as is the case here). But once you've got 1-2 Guards, your ability to get 2d consistently with Orcs is more dependent on your coaching skills than on your player skills.

[narg]

But once you've got 1-2 Guards, your ability to get 2d consistently with Orcs is more dependent on your coaching skills than on your player skills.

Getting one 2d blitz / block per turn is of course always possible, but getting 2d consistently during the whole turn against an opponent that has more guard than you is something that I just don't see happening unless there's a massive difference in coaching skills: if the opponent has more guard, he's the one who will get the 2d blocks and you'll be the one dodging away.

Here I'd need to see the replay of a game where it's done to believe it, I know you don't play online but film a game where you do that and upload it on youtube or something, honestly if you have a way to outbash a team that has more guard than yours I'm really, really interested as it's against such teams that I tend to lose the most.

And why would five be the optimal number of guards on an orc team? I mean the orc team that won the FC final at fumbbl had six (see "winning teams" thread), and I'd say "only" six probably because of player turnover and doubles.

[mattgslater]

I'd like to do that. Maybe I'll run Orcs next season, and do a stop-motion piece on a late-season game. My basic strategy on using Orcs to get over on a team with more Guard but less SF is built around strategic pushing. Block the ST3/Guard player at 2d to open up a 2d on his neighbor, that sort of thing.

Why five? On offense, I need three or four, one or two each on the LOS and the cage. Having a fifth one gives more options because I can redirect and have Guard where I need it, but beyond that they're less good (it's still a decent skill). On defense, if I have a half-zig, then I only have five guys who can make use of Guard immediately (the D-LOS, plus the free midfielder and the zig flanker), and with five of them I can usually make sure that I have one where I need him. With just Guard and Block across the defensive line, a heavy team only needs a couple Guards to move the D-line on all 2d blocks, with all the hits he needs. Without any positioning skills on the LOS, you also open yourself up to chain games and engineered blocks, which is where the real damage occurs.

Part of it is also so I get all the skills I need. All four Blitzers get MB and a positioning skill, three BOBs get Block (the other one gets Grab) and two get positioning skills second, so only two BOBs have room for Guard as a #1-2 skill. One of my Blitzers, the SS winger, almost always plays on an island, and seldom gets to use Guard. I took Guard on him once, thinking the Guard/SS combo was so cool on elves that it had to be good on Orcs, but it was kind of disappointing. Now it's the #4 skill in my winger track. I have a Frenzy Blitzer track, too. That definitively leaves room for one Guard Blitzer, and maybe two. Plus the Troll, that's four or five in early progression. Eventually, as I start getting Blitzers to 51 and Blockers to 31, I may get as many as 7x Guard. I totally play in leagues with teams that try to get Block and Guard across the entire roster, and I find that against those teams what happens is that both sides are able to engineer 2d blocks at will. I have to think a little harder about it against those teams specifically built to kill me, but I still usually win. So I refuse to build exclusively to deal with them. I'd rather have to game harder against that team this week, then get a ton of Cas and TDs against the Skaven or whatever the next week.

[Funksultan]

Don't like seeing what coulda been a useful thread degenerate.

Narg makes good points. Matt, you might be exaggerating a little bit. Against frenzy-rich builds, sooner or later, you'll have someone 1v1 with his back squarely up against the crowd against a higher str, or assist, with no help coming. It's 2d against, double dodge, or just sit and wait for the surf. I'll take the 2d against every time. You should have seen this scenario many times, even with orcs.

SF heavy is fine, and has a lot of use, but against (as the original poster, and almost everyone else will tell you) a superior-guard claw team, it's not a lot of help.

D

[mattgslater]

Spammed SF helps eliminate the scenario you're describing, Funksultan. I have never had a player surfed on a developed Orc team: it's pretty much impossible if you're loaded up on positioning skills. Rookie teams, yeah, but then I don't think we'd differ much in our skill track. It's the mid-range skills where the strategies diverge, and the first thing I do after this divergence is to make my team un-surfable. FWIW, I have made Frenzy blocks where the second one was/would have been 2d against, and though I can't recall ever actually making that 2d against block with an Orc, it's possible that it's happened (I know I did that with High Elves a couple times earlier this year). I was only considering initial blocks when I made that claim.

Otherwise, I don't think we're that far apart in our perspective. The major difference is who you're gaming against. I think you should always game against the field, no matter who your perceived threat is, unless you're in elimination play (like playoffs or something). If you build to beat one kind of opponent, some other kind will get you. Claws don't hurt Amazons, and Tackle doesn't hurt Chaos, but Mighty Blow and Stand Firm hurt everybody you play against. Likewise with a whole lot of Guard (only useful vs. heavy) vs. a heavy sprinkling of Guard (useful vs. everybody). That Chaos team is at a huge disadvantage against elves, given the near-total lack of Tackle and positioning skills. But farming elf-meat is how you get more skills on your team! It's possible this is a function of opponent mix, which in my mind is unfortunate. In that case, that does change the equation.

I've said all I've to say here, because as Funksultan points out, the discussion has gone from relevant to peripheral to tangential and is threatening to leave the park. I definitely think there are multiple effective schools of Orc coaching, and I suspect this is more or less a "tastes great/less filling" issue.

Back on track for me. This Chaos team is up Horns and one Guard on the Orcs. That's really nothing, at peak development. The Chaos team has a lot of Claw, but some of it isn't Claw/MB, and Orc AV is generally about half a point better, which makes it a wash. The Orc team has all or pretty much all the Guard it needs, no matter whether you're in my camp or Narg/Funksultan's. The Orc team also has a serious mobility advantage, and without the ST disadvantage of similarly mobile teams, so the poster has really got the upper hand here. Just do some damage, and you'll be fine. If you get a chance to nail the Mino, so much the better. If you want to build in a track that works well against teams like these, take a Dirty Player.

[Greyhound]

thanks for all your help, I won the game 1-0

highlights: he had a bribe and fouled like mad at the start. After loosing the bribe he was still using his best players to foul, resulting in an expulsion for his level 6 beastman killer.
He elected to kick
He totally ignored the ball in the first half so I stalled with my thrower, all alone for 4 turns.
He rolled well to break AV, but mostly got Stun, with only one BH.
I even used the Apo in turn 13 to remove a KO so that my leaper would keep putting pressure on the ball carrier.
He had a lot of push but few skulls, so the single Stand firm was awesome in this game
The trolls used PO twice, once at the start (turn 3) getting a cas on a clawed beastman and once in turn 6 or 7 on the mino sending him in the KO box (came back in the second half)

The whole game is available on BB Manager [UKBBL] Premiership West - Season 5.

Thanks again!

[dines]

Hehe sounds like his playstyle makes as much sense as his skill picks... Grats with the win

[dsavillian]

I even used the Apo in turn 13 to remove a KO so that my leaper would keep putting pressure on the ball carrier.

Pro move! I love the "playing to win" mentality (as opposed to the "playing not to lose players" mentality that I have when I field my wood elves )

[mattgslater]

There's this feeling you get when you look at a coming opponent, and some stat about their play or some feature of their team really sets your hair on end. Then you sit down to play them, and they turn out to be totally chump-o-rama. It's disappointing and relieving, vindicating and unsatisfying, you know? I'd rather have a league full of opponents who mostly are within the margin of the bouncing ball and early skulls or injuries, you know?

I don't get leaving a ball-carrier free, certainly not for 4 turns. Yeah, you get to fight 11-on-10 for a little bit, but it's just so risky to surrender the tempo like that.

[JaM]

Well done, good to see you kept your cool.

Now on to the next win, you owe "us" (as in, the helpfull info you got from various members here) !!