Meditations on the Cult of Position: Med IV up Groundhog Day

[mattgslater]

Yeah. Okay. Zig.
Outside stack = Zig
Inside stack = Zag

Like?

Without the alliterative "wedge" to use as an alternative, I'm not happy with "wall" either. How about "line" if parallel to scrimmage or "stack" if perpendicular?

That leaves us with Line, Stack, Zig and Zag.

As far as multiplayer terms, let's not get ahead of ourselves. I'd like to take a teleological approach to terms involving more than two players, and involving players on the other team. A teaser for Med. IV or V:

Locks

Fence Lock
– A 1 B – –

Screen Lock
– A 1 – B –

But first, the pitch. Tomorrow.

[Coach Grievous]

Yeah. Okay. Zig.
Outside stack = Zig
Inside stack = Zag

Like?

Without the alliterative "wedge" to use as an alternative, I'm not happy with "wall" either. How about "line" if parallel to scrimmage or "stack" if perpendicular?

That leaves us with Line, Stack, Zig and Zag.

Perfect.

[sunnyside]

I think you had a winner with "wall". It's intuitive. You could take someone who has never played the game before and say, "Ok, there are players over there, and they want to carry the ball over here, arrange the defenders in a wall"

9 times out of 10 they'll get it right. Do the same with "line" and I give 'em about a 4 in 10.

The military terms are "rank" and "file" but I think most coaches already know "stack" at least here, and like I said I think you have a winner with wall.

I still think you should use the term "wedge" but it should be for a 3+ player formation that you might use instead of a cage.

[dines]

Good with some definitions, they should definately be put somewhere easily accessible, so people can grasp the meaning when discussed in other threads. It could be collected together with naming of player positions and defensive setups.

I agree with Sunny about 'walls' rather than 'lines', it's good and intuitive. Zig, zag and stack is also good - so now the 'inverted ziggurat' should be renamed to 'zaggurat'?

[Coach Grievous]

Disagree with walls over lines. It's not a wall of people, it's a line, imo. Also, see linemen. The term is a fit for Bloodbowl rather than either of rank and file, even though they might in other contexts be "more correct". Also, zigs and zags sound like something Bloodbowl players and coaches would use. Simple to say, write and fits the flavor.

[nick_nameless]

In all seriousness...what does it matter what term is used as long as the meaning is spelled out.

[mattgslater]

In all seriousness...what does it matter what term is used as long as the meaning is spelled out.

It matters because we want to be able to speak in a shorthand, and not having to spell out your meaning every time you use a term makes life a lot easier.

I like Zag, but I don't like Zaggurat. I don't like "Inverted Ziggurat" either. It looks kind of like a Viking ship, no?

One argument in favor of "wall" is that it fits in nicely with "fence" and "screen" structures. Another is that "line" already has an informal use, as the LOS and/or half-way line. So, given the support for it that I'm seeing, I'm going to keep using it.

So... defense at top, sideline on the left, vertical line is the hashmark.

Wall
– a b –

Zig
– – a –
– b – –

Zag
– a – –
– – b –

Stack
– a –
– b –

Fence, or "square fence" to be precise
– a – b|–

Screen (square)
– a – –|b –

So do we have "zig" and "zag" and "stack" fences and screens? And if so, are they pairs of formations, or offset formations?

My instinct is that a "zig screen" is a screen of zigs, like the formations of a Ziggurat defense.
– – a –|– c
– b – –|d –

And that this
– – – –|b –
– a – –|– –
is something else, like an "outside edge screen" or something. Zig-edge screen? Maybe a word-order thing, like "screen zig" vs. "zig screen"? That might be confusing.

[Wanchor]

And that this
– – – –|b –
– a – –|– –
is something else, like an "outside edge screen" or something. Zig-edge screen?

Oblique zig? I had a nerdy little chuckle over 'Zaggurat.' I can see that becoming vernacular.

[mattgslater]

It would be an oblique screen. A zig is oblique by nature. This would define a zig as an oblique wall.

Some more. Consider this Med IIa.

Fence-Screen (that is, a screen with respect to the LOS, which is also a fence with respect to the sideline, and is thus a screen modified by the adjective "fence")
* * * –|a –
– – – –|– –
– b – *|* *

Screen-Fence
* * – a|–
* * – –|–
– – – *|*
– b – *|*

Broken Screen (screen door!)
* * * –|a –
* * * –|– –
– – – *|* *
– b – *|* *

[nick_nameless]

In all seriousness...what does it matter what term is used as long as the meaning is spelled out.

It matters because we want to be able to speak in a shorthand, and not having to spell out your meaning every time you use a term makes life a lot easier.

Indeed. I wasn't saying "Don't develop consistent terms", I was saying "does it matter if you call it a wall or a line, so long as everyone knows what it's called"

I'm all for the discussion, just hoping it doesn't get bogged down in needless gamer debate. Oh, yes...I have lost days of my life to needless gamer debate

[Odie]

Zig
– – a –
– b – –

Zag
– a – –
– – b –

We need to be careful how we define these terms diagrammatically - as I understood sunnyside's suggestion of using 'zig' and 'zag', the diagrams here could be used for either term depending on their location on the pitch.

He says, speaking of the Ziggurat: "In this case a ziggurate defense would be composed of a three player wall in on the LOS, and the rest of the team arranged in four zigs such that there are no gaps the defense can run through without throwing blocks or blitzing, and with one player on each side of the field screened by the leading edges of the two zigs on that side. Hence why its such a useful defense prior to aquiring position skills. " - The emphasis here is mine.

I understood the zig formation to be where the lead man is positioned in front and to the inside edge of the tailing man in relation to which vertical half of the pitch they were on, and zag to be where the lead man was in front and to the outside edge of the tail man in relation to the vertical halves of the pitch.

These would both be zigs:

– – a – – a – –
– b – – – – b –

And these would both be zags:

– a – – – – a –
– – b – – b – –

[mattgslater]

Correct. Spoiler on Med III: when in doubt, always diagram with the offense at the top or right, and the defense at the bottom or left. When diagramming only part of the width of the field, always assume you're on the defense's left side unless you have a good reason not to, so unless noted otherwise, the sideline is the beginning of the text line. I'll explain my justification soon. I know I promised today, and it may not be, but soon.

[TalonBay]

I like Zag, but I don't like Zaggurat. I don't like "Inverted Ziggurat" either. It looks kind of like a Viking ship, no?

I can see Zaggurat catching on, way better than inverted zig IMO.

So... defense at top, sideline on the left, vertical line is the hashmark.

Wall
– a b –

Zig
– – a –
– b – –

Zag
– a – –
– – b –

Stack
– a –
– b –

Fence, or "square fence" to be precise
– a – b|–

Screen (square)
– a – –|b –

Top marks for defining a good set of starting terminology! More posts with concrete details in like this is a good thing.

[Odie]

In addition to the existing definitions of Wide Zone, End Zone, and Line Of Scrimmage, I'd like to suggest a definition for the Centerline as the line of squares that defines the vertical or lengthwise halves of the pitch. Since many of these definitions are going to be both positional and relational to players and pitch, another axis reference could come in handy.

[mattgslater]

In addition to the existing definitions of Wide Zone, End Zone, and Line Of Scrimmage, I'd like to suggest a definition for the Centerline as the line of squares that defines the vertical or lengthwise halves of the pitch. Since many of these definitions are going to be both positional and relational to players and pitch, another axis reference could come in handy.

Med III half-done. I will address all of this.