Chaos Team Pact team advice

falconeyed · Post by **falconeyed** » Thu Sep 18, 2008 1:41 am

Jural wrote:I would be tempted to ignore the roll, if you need more movement for a build, consider sure feet.

I'd personally go leap, followed by very long legs. That's a great player of offense or defense! 3rd? Frenzy, Horns, Strip Ball, Block, Wrestle, Jump-Up, etc, all are fine choices. Dodge, PAss Block, Side Step, Diving Tackle, Disturbing Presence are good too.

The question is... Is +MA better than all of those choices? For my money, no.

The one problem I've noticed with the team so far is an overall lack of team speed, which is exacerbated by all the big guys (there's a trade off for all that ST5, of course). I'm of the opinion that Pact is sort of like Norse / Amazon with regards to stat increases ... you take them whenever they arise. The +MA will be far more useful at this point, at least in my experience.

Leap / Very Long Legs is an interesting build, but it's an awful long time to get to that build on a guy that is absolutely critical to your offense and defense, and even more so when you're consciously avoiding Block and Dodge. The AG4 means that, more often than not, the ball carrying / retrieving will go through the Dark Elf, from the standpoint of having to get the ball out of a tough spot or from the standpoint of having an easy guy for the marauders to quick pass to.

In sum, the +MA will always be useful but the leap and very long legs will only be situationally useful. At this point, my vote would be for the always useful over the situational useful.

landrover · Post by **landrover** » Thu Sep 18, 2008 2:17 am

mrbrownesquire wrote:I have just rolled an Mv/Av increase for my Dark elf and am not sure what to go for. The move would be nice, but with so many ordinary skill choices - G A M - would it be better to go for something else?

I currently have:
7 marauders - 1 with Guard
1 Dark elf - rolled a 10 for skill
1 Skaven with block
1 goblin
1 troll
1 ogre

Happened to me too. I went with the +MA and also gave him horns as he scored 16 points in one match! He can act as my ball carrier when necessary, but I'm going with the blitzer route, dodging into cages using AG4.

Jural · Post by **Jural** » Thu Sep 18, 2008 2:44 am

I would take the +MA on a few marauders and the skaven, but not on the Dark Elf. The Dark Elf gets Sure Feet on a normal roll, and his AG 4 can be better used than that.

Plus at 0-1, it means you are putting leap (or horns) 10 SPP further out, and Very Long Legs (or Frenzy) 21 more SPP out. To me that's what's not worth the +1MA.

IT looks like the team develops slow, so longterm strategies are more key... But in my mind that doesn't mean take every attribute increase, it means develop your team along fairly set paths and hope enough of your players progress to that point to make it worthwhile.

The more I think about the Dark Elf, I think you need to build around the concept of AG 4, AG skills, and mutations. And you probably choose to make him an offensive or defensive threat.

Leap + Very Long Legs
Side Step + Disturbing Precense
Dodge + Two Heads (Stunty anyone?)

Not to mention things like Side Step and Tentacles...

The only way I'd go MA 7 would be if I wanted a Shadowing build... and frankly, tentacles + diving tackle is better in every way (or maybe tentacles and Prehensile tail.)

tenwit · Post by **tenwit** » Thu Sep 18, 2008 4:04 am

Noone's suggested Diving Catch for the delf. Get it now while it still bypasses Animosity!

The Chaos Pact team in our league went boring old blodge with the delf. It helped hugely for about 10 games (when ball handling was limited to pretty much one guy and he had to be defended), but then various marauders became just as good as the delf at ball handling. If I was the sort to give advice to players in my own league, I'd suggest firing the blodger and making a specialized player.

In fact, I reckon that's pretty good advice in general. While your team it underdeveloped, make a blodging elf. Later, fire him and make something "better". By that time, you should have figured out what you need your elf to do. This is the one player who should have relatively little problem earning SPPs in a developed CP team.

Jural · Post by **Jural** » Thu Sep 18, 2008 4:35 am

tenwit wrote: In fact, I reckon that's pretty good advice in general. While your team it underdeveloped, make a blodging elf. Later, fire him and make something "better". By that time, you should have figured out what you need your elf to do. This is the one player who should have relatively little problem earning SPPs in a developed CP team.

The only potential problem is that the specialist player keeps getting better as he advances. For some players, the second or third advance really defines them, and future advances (assuming none are doubles, +STR, etc) don't make them much better.

But this Dark Elf with Leap and Very Long Legs? He needs Dodge and Block and Horns and Strip Ball and Frenzy and....

And the Dark Elf with Tentacles and Diving Tackle? He needs Tackle, Side Step, Dodge, Prehensile Tail...

Andromidius · Post by **Andromidius** » Thu Sep 18, 2008 12:35 pm

I always thought that having a Dark Elf with Pass Block, Catch, Very Long Legs would make a terrifying ball snatcher. Not to mention later getting Extra Arms. Interceptions on a 3+ with a reroll that can move to get into position during a pass? That would really mess up passing teams like Humans or High Elves.

Just keep him very well protected, since he'd have no defensive skills at all.

~Andromidius

tenwit · Post by **tenwit** » Thu Sep 18, 2008 8:59 pm

Nice idea but it's rarely effective in practice. My Pass Block/Catch Slann Catcher (4+ rerollable intercepts) has made 0 intercepts, and I don't think he's even caused anyone to not make a pass. It's a nice-to-have, but several of the other builds are more usually useful.

Blodge, Pass Block, and one of those anti-dodge skills (Tentacles, Tackle, DT or PT) would be useful always and occasaionally extremely useful. And it works from the first skill!

Post by **DoubleSkulls** » Thu Sep 18, 2008 11:34 pm

Good interceptors generally stop the opponent throwing the ball, rather than actually getting interceptons. Why pass over the head of someone who's even a 50/50 chance of an interception?

Jural · Post by **Jural** » Fri Sep 19, 2008 1:55 am

I can't think of a single time that I have passed over the head of anyone who could intercept on better than a 6. I will occassionally take that risk, however.

The question is- Does Catch and VLL stop people from throwing more often than just AG 4? Pass Block is just for positioning, after all.

I would argue that it does not. My most effective Pass Blockers tend to have Dodge (and occasionally Leap) with dark elf teams, they rarely have AG 5, Nerves of Steel, or Catch.

The only question remaining is: how amny high elf teams are in your league? If there are quite a few, or if Safe Throw is a frequently chosen skill, maybe I'd rethink the above.

But I've never played in that environment.

Andromidius · Post by **Andromidius** » Fri Sep 19, 2008 2:49 am

In my league passing play is very common. Even the Necromantic team does it (usually after smashing my cage open and then making a desperate last turn long bomb to a waiting Werewolf...).

Though it depends on the local players.

~Andromidius

tenwit · Post by **tenwit** » Fri Sep 19, 2008 3:11 am

Jural wrote:The only question remaining is: how amny high elf teams are in your league? If there are quite a few, or if Safe Throw is a frequently chosen skill, maybe I'd rethink the above.

He did include VLL in the build, and that cancels Safe Throw.

Post by **DoubleSkulls** » Fri Sep 19, 2008 3:28 am

Generally I'll avoid passing over anyone if I can - but especially AG4 or catch players (catch is 30% to intercept when needing a 6).

The argument is that if you have too good interceptors (say AG4, catch & pass block) in the backfield then you massively reduce the chance your opponent will pass over them - meaning its easier to block their other options too.

Of course against about 2/3 of teams its a waste since they won't pass the ball at all. Even against passing oriented teams all you'll commonly get them to do is pass to the los and then hand off to the deeper receiver.

Grendel · Post by **Grendel** » Fri Sep 19, 2008 6:43 pm

landrover wrote:
mrbrownesquire wrote:I have just rolled an Mv/Av increase for my Dark elf and am not sure what to go for.
[...]
Happened to me too. I went with the +MA
[...]

I also went with +1 MA on the Dark Elf. The more models you have with MA 7 the better. it makes such a big difference for scoring (no need to GFI for the two turn TD) and on defence as well.

The team can be one of the most flexible in the whole game (with the way you can customize the marauders) but it lacks speed.

That is why I would always suggest going for the +1 Movement with any of the Marauders or the Elf or Skaven.

Marlow · Post by **Marlow** » Fri Sep 19, 2008 8:34 pm

tenwit wrote:Nice idea but it's rarely effective in practice. My Pass Block/Catch Slann Catcher (4+ rerollable intercepts) has made 0 intercepts, and I don't think he's even caused anyone to not make a pass.

Well that sort of player makes me not pass the ball, I have made extra dodge rolls, etc to get out of range of Pass Block players before throwing the ball.

dr. evil · Post by **dr. evil** » Sun Jan 11, 2009 8:03 pm

I am starting a pact team and looking for some good builds. The team will look like this to start:
Troll
Ogre
Gobbo
Delf
7 Marauders

I was thinking of making the Delf into a cage breaker (block, leap, Strip), the Gobbo a ball retreiver (two heads, big hand, Extra arms) and the first two marauders into passers (sure hands/extra arms, pass). I was thinking of break tackle for the ogre to help with mobility and as a second cage breaker.

Any thought on the rest of the team?