Pro Elf Qs

Ullis · Post by **Ullis** » Mon Aug 31, 2009 8:30 am

I was thinking Guard or Mighty Blow. MB on one of the catchers would be great as you'd get some hitting power. Not just in removing players from the pitch but for gaining a man advantage (even from a stun) for those times you get to intercept the ball carrier before he gets rid of the ball or into a cage in the back field. Guard is also good in that role as a ball carrier often has some support and in those cases Guard can be the difference between getting a 1-d or 2-d on the ball carrier.

I can see the reasoning for Dump Off (and the fact that there's not too many better natural combos than for Dump Off and NOS), but I still think that it'd be only marginally useful in practice. Dump off only comes to play in defence once you've gotten the ball loose and Guard and MB (Guard probably more) would help you in actually doing that. So basically what I'm arguing is that in this stage of the team's development there are better doubles skills than Dump Off. MB is a bit of a waste since he doesn't have Block yet, but at least he doesn't have Wrestle to spoil MB.

Carnis · Post by **Carnis** » Mon Aug 31, 2009 9:01 am

mattgslater wrote:See, I like Dump-off on defense as a ball-recovery mechanism. If you need a TRR to get the ball you don't necessarily want to be throwing it. Dump-off solves that problem: just pick up and hold on, and then when you get blitzed, dump off.

Xcept, Sure Hands + Dodge does it better than dump-off + dodge. Sure hands rerolls the pickup, dodge rerolls the dodge, then you have a reroll for the throw (and catch, if you throw to a catcher!) and even if you dont get to throw you have a player with sure hands & hopefully blodge standing with the ball.

Ullis has a point about mighty blow (+100% KO/CAS rate on blitzes), one per team is a good idea. The problem is, you're playing pro-elves, one of the most fragile teams in the game.. I would hence go for mb on a player who already HAS guard (or frenzy), as guard is so much bigger a priority.

Generally, all your elves should aim at a: Block/Guard/Sidestep/Dodge as their first 2-4 skills. In addition to that you need some tackle/wrackle for blodgers, some wrestle for blockers, a thrower, a sure hands player for ball recovery. Possibly after these you can get one strip ball for general annoyance, kicker for control, a frenzy/ss for control, a dirty player again for control (especially, on defence), and a mighty blow for some damage. With this lineup, you should do fine against most teams, well played dwarves will make you bleed though, no matter what, especially if they load up with some diving tackle.

I would not have taken diving tackle as a first skill on an elf blitzer, it's so totally situational (anti-elf) skill, that will see very little use against bashier teams, and won't actually help you down blodgers on your own turn either.

Ullis · Post by **Ullis** » Mon Aug 31, 2009 11:26 am

Carnis wrote:Xcept, Sure Hands + Dodge does it better than dump-off + dodge. Sure hands rerolls the pickup, dodge rerolls the dodge, then you have a reroll for the throw (and catch, if you throw to a catcher!) and even if you dont get to throw you have a player with sure hands & hopefully blodge standing with the ball.

It's not quite so clear cut. You might have already used a team reroll earlier. Say that you used it on a GFI to reach the ball in the first place. Now since you have that ball on a blodging catcher, you don't want to risk getting it on the ground as the last thing on your own turn so you don't pass or GFI. On the other hand, you might have blitzed the ball free with the guy picking the ball up. And your reliable passing target might be a player that the opponent can blitz freely too so making the pass on your own turn might not help at all in keeping the ball secure.

The beauty of Dump off is that you don't have to make the pass on your own turn and can force your opponent to make the decision and perhaps commit players to making the Dump off pass as hard as possible before making the blitz, especially if you have multiple players within Quick Pass range, although I guess in the majority of cases the opponent's first priority is just blitzing or blocking the ball carrier first as reliably as possible regardless of whether he has Dump Off or not.

And we're talking doubles now. The player in question already has Dodge and Sure Hands is a normal skill.

mattgslater · Post by **mattgslater** » Mon Aug 31, 2009 1:45 pm

Mighty Blow is a great skill on a team that can get a lot of it, but one or two isn't much good. This piece is best-off if he's always out in the open where he can't use Guard reliably. The roll is a double, the player has GA access and Nerves of Steel. Dump-off isn't the only P or S skill that combos with NOS... but I'd definitely think down those lines.

Jural · Post by **Jural** » Mon Aug 31, 2009 8:15 pm

Well, I don't know if Matt is being cagey or not, but there qre two huge advantage to dump-off- 1) nobody knows where the ball will be following the blitz! and 2) the player performing the blitz can also pick up the ball.

If you swoop in, pick-up the ball, and dodge away, finally passing or handing off to another player, then that player can't have performed the blitz to free the ball up, and the opponent knows where to target to get the ball loose next turn.

So Dump-Off adds in a large blanket of unknown, and gives some more ball popping options to a player. In that vein, I have made Pro Elf catchers with Strip Ball and Dump-Off, no block, no dodge. He lived exactly one game... but the theory was sound

Master Wang · Post by **Master Wang** » Tue Sep 01, 2009 12:29 am

Well I chickened out on Dump Off

but my Dodge, Guard catcher just about survived his first game! I took Guard pretty much off the flip of a coin. Maybe not the right choice as it means he'll spend time in base to base contact with other players, but if I'm careful those players will be blocked away. On the Blitzer I took Tackle which turned out to be useless due to all the skulls he rolled

I accidentally played a newish Underworld team. I missed my opponent saying he was going to use them and was expecting High Elves only to come up against Nobbla, Dribblesnot and bribes! Not exactly what my benchless AV7 team wanted to face.

Amazingly the worst injury was MNG on the DT Blitzer and the score ended 3-3 with me having 6 players on the field - as little as 4 sometimes. I consider it a pretty good result given the other coach's experience and the fact that a fair few of the casualties came early in the game. Guard on the catcher was useful, but not amazingly so, hopefully I can get him to Block asap. Sadly there were no skill ups, as I had to score opportunistically, and I still can't afford a 12th player (well I can, but the Blitzer is injured so I'll only be able to field 11). In fact I'll probably not bother and just take a journeyman for the next game to sacrifice to the LOS.

I'm away on a brief holiday but hopefully will be able to play a game against a scoring focused team when I return.

Master Wang · Post by **Master Wang** » Tue Sep 01, 2009 12:33 am

Something to ponder while I'm away - what is this team supposed to do against Dwarves? Every so often I look at the fairly developed and successful Dwarf team and shudder. I know the idea is run and score, but how do you get past all the Guard to get near the ball? The team in mind has a Deathroller and a +ST Slayer, too

mattgslater · Post by **mattgslater** » Tue Sep 01, 2009 12:43 am

The reality is that if you have to break a cage you've already blown it. Not that you can't recover, but that your best avenue is closed with a thud. The real way to do it is to take some Kick and Leap. Kick deep, and hope to tangle the Dwarfs up in their own backfield, where they have to clear you off and be moving upfield by turn 6 or they can't score, and any takeaway leads to a TD for you (and a new roll for knockouts).

If necessary, cage-breaking is another bennie to Side Step, especially as a second skill after Wrestle. Front up on the cage with a couple Wrestle/SS players, preferably just in one TZ to make him burn actions lining up assists, and if he doesn't get a 5/9 knockdown, you're in his Runner's grill. If he does get the knockdown, you're wherever the press of bodies is least convenient, and more often than not you're ready to take another bite at the apple next turn. If I get a High Elf lineman with 3 skills in a Dwarfy league, it's Wrestle, SS and Jump Up, but Pro Elves need Dodge badly.

So long as you can keep turning the game over, a Dodge Blitzer is a big F-U to a Slayer. It's an expensive way to pin down Frenzy, but so long as you don't get hurt trying it can be pretty effective.

Wanchor · Post by **Wanchor** » Tue Sep 01, 2009 9:12 pm

I probably wouldn't bother trying to cage-break against a dwarf team. Kick deep, tangle them up, like matt said, but just keep everyone one space off, leave only their blitz every turn and keep their advancement of the ball limited to one or two spaces every turn. You don't need to murder them, just keep them from scoring.

Master Wang · Post by **Master Wang** » Mon Sep 07, 2009 10:15 am

So I played another game earlier this week against the Wood Elves with a one-turner Wardancer that beat me a while back and won 4-3. Was a little annoyed with myself that it wasn't 5-3 or even 5-2 as I had chances at 4-2 and 4-3 to score again. I learnt a valuable lesson about playing safe after my poor decision with the score at 4-2.

Both of my primary catcher/blitzer hybrids skilled again and both took Tackle (my next game will probably be against Lizards and there is a lot of Dodge around now), also a rookie lineman skilled again so I have Kick again

The team now looks like this:

1 Blitzer 7 3 4 8 Block, Side step, Dodge, Diving Tackle 19spps
2 Blitzer 7 3 4 8 Block, Side step, Dodge, Tackle 19spps
3 Catcher 8 3 4 7 Catch, Nerves of Steel, Wrestle, Dodge, Tackle 34spps
4 Catcher 8 3 4 7 Catch, Nerves of Steel, Dodge, Wrestle, Tackle 34spps
5 Catcher 8 3 4 7 Catch, NOS, Dodge, Guard 20spps
6 Lineman 6 3 4 7 Kick 12spps
7 Thrower 6 3 4 7 Pass, Accurate 14spps
8 Lineman 6 3 4 7 Dodge 7 spps
9 Lineman 6 3 4 7 Guard 9spps
10 Lineman 6 3 4 7 Dodge 6 spps
11 Lineman 6 3 4 7
12 Lineman 6 3 4 7
13 Lineman 6 3 4 7

TV 1650k
Treasury 30k
Apothecary Yes
Rerolls 3
Fan Factor 8
Ass. Coaches 0
Cheerleaders 0

This is easily the highest TV I've ever had on a BB team, so I was wondering how I should be looking to manage it once I get into spiralling expenses territory. Obviously deaths will "help" keep it down, but assuming people don't die, how many players and skills do people think are best? I can see the catchers just getting better with more: Jump Up next, then Sidestep or Diving Tackle. or Leap. The Blitzers are quite similar. The Thrower on the other hand looks like he only needs one or two more skills to be as useful as he can be. As for the linemen, After Dodge, Block or Wrestle and Sidestep, is there anything worth the TV bloat? How about develpoing a Dirty Player-Sneaky Git or a Block-Dauntless-Frenzy type?

I know this is a lot of Theorybowl and may be unnecessary if I get a kicking in my next game, but if people have the time to write about how they would develop Pro Elves for higher TV in a league with all kinds of teams, I'll be interested to read it.

Carnis · Post by **Carnis** » Mon Sep 07, 2009 10:42 am

Block frenzy sidestep rather than block frenzy dauntless, if you want to incorporate a crowdpusher in the team. Dp + sneaky git is a possibility, I would not invest on it on a non-killing team though. Fend springs to mind after wrestle/dodge/sidestep. Cancels piling on, the dread to any pro elf side.

I'm actually amazed how low you have been able to keep that TR despite having so many skills.

Thrower has tons of useful skills to pick still. Block, Dodge, Safe Throw, Dump off, Fend, Sidestep, Strong arm, +AG, +MA, +ST to name a few.

Ullis · Post by **Ullis** » Mon Sep 07, 2009 12:55 pm

Master Wang wrote:I can see the catchers just getting better with more: Jump Up next, then Sidestep or Diving Tackle. or Leap. The Blitzers are quite similar. The Thrower on the other hand looks like he only needs one or two more skills to be as useful as he can be.

I'd be looking at Side-step next as it's a skill that gets better the more you have it and it works great in disrupting cage building and advancing with a cage which I think is the most important Pro-elf defence tactic. And it's even pretty nice in offence if you run a typical catcher flood into the back field. So basically I was wondering what your reasoning for Jump up is?

And I agree with the thrower upgrading. Anything after this, barring Strong Arm and +AG, will only make him marginally better in offence. I'd probably take Safe Throw (as interceptions are something that you cannot control in any other way) or Sure Hands. Have you thought about a defensive thrower? I don't really know if pro elves can afford one, but a thrower with Block, Sure Hands and Dodge might be nice to have. A catcher probably does the same thing better due to having superior speed and NoS.

Wanchor · Post by **Wanchor** » Mon Sep 07, 2009 2:44 pm

I'm a proponent of Jump Up, but I think Sidestep or Diving Tackle (or even Diving Catch for those just-in-case scenarios) would be more suitable for the catchers, despite how awesome it would be to wrestle someone down and then Jump back Up on the next turn, ready to receive a pass without having risked taking a scratch throughout the whole ordeal. Okay, maybe one Jump Up for the one catcher. Jump Up on the Blitzers is definitely in if you ask me, especially for the one who has Diving Tackle already. He'll be a pretty serious workhorse, constantly blocking and tackling.

Not sure about how limited the Thrower's advancement is, though. He would benefit from Sure Hands, Kick-off Return, Nerves of Steel, Dump-off, Safe Throw...depends on how you use him, I guess. Leader might be a good choice to keep your re-roll count, but trim down your TV, since it's already becoming an issue for you.

mattgslater · Post by **mattgslater** » Mon Sep 07, 2009 3:48 pm

The first time one of your Blodge linos hits 31, give him Dauntless. Don't sweat it until then, unless you have to deal with high-ST ball-carriers a lot, in which case it should be a 51SPP thing for one of those two Dodge/Wrackle Catchers instead. Don't give Dauntless to Frenzy-guy.

Frenzy is a great follow-up for your Dodge/Tackle Blitzer.

Jump-Up isn't a bad skill, but you don't want to be using it a lot, so it's kind of self-defeating. It's a late skill for players who already have more than one skill that combos with it, or on your Blitzers (the lone exception, as they actually start with a Jump Up combo package). Fortunately, it does combo with a lot of very good skills and other improvements, like Side Step, Fend, Diving Tackle, Wrestle, and +AV. Seldom should an elf cross the 76 SPP mark without considering Jump Up, but it's not a #1 selection for anybody in my book, or even a #2 selection except on a Pro Elf Blitzer or some AG3 Blitzers on a second consecutive double. I could see it as a second double on a Flesh Golem... generally speaking, if you want to funnel action to the player and he already has a positioning skill and Blodge/equivalent, or if you have a trick with the player that puts him on the ground a lot (like Wrestle or Diving Tackle), Jump Up is killer. Otherwise it's a waste.

I would only get Tackle on one of the two Catchers. I'd give the other one some other toolbox skill. Frenzy? Leap? Pass Block?

Master Wang · Post by **Master Wang** » Tue Sep 08, 2009 2:53 pm

Thanks for the replies, all nice and interesting!

@ Carnis
My reasoning behind the thrower comments was based on him only playing offense, which basically leaves him sitting really deep out of blitz range with the ball in his hands. For that he needs no defensive or preservation related skills. I see him getting Safe Throw next, after that Sure Hands or KOR will be benefical, but nothing amazing. Of course +AG or Strong Arm would be nice.

The TV has stayed low because up until after the last game I've always had 11 players due to deaths or SI's. Now I have 13, but several are unskilled.

I had forgotten about Fend stopping Piling On...

@ Ullis
I guess I really like the Wrestle/Jump Up combo. They are my primary hitters, especially against Block ball carriers, so they find themselves on the ground fairly often. That said, Sidestep is great. Still 51spps will hopefully be a way off as I want to focus on skilling some other players so no decisions yet.

I doubt I'll ever be able to get a defensive thrower, and with the catchers and blitzers, maybe I don't need one.

@ Wanchor
I have thought about DT on them as it combines nicely with Tackle.

To be honest, there are plenty of good choices for them, so none seem to stand out.

@ Matt
The only toolbox I've considered so far is Leap, but will probably leave it to the 4th catcher when/if I am able to hire him. So far he is scheduled for if/when the Guard one gets another skill and if no positionals get hurt before then and I have the money. Lots of if's. Frenzy may find it's way to the Tackle Blitzer, though I'm not too familiar with the skill. However, if my Guard players stay healthy, I won't need to worry so much about going out of position.