Khemri and LRB 6

[plasmoid]

IMO, khemri are so poor at "what they do best" that they need to build that up, rather than building up 'outs' that won't even be particularly reliable. But nuff said about that from me.

Again IMO a reliable 3 turn score requires you to play against an opponent greatly reduced in numbers - or just someone really unlucky. You don't have a ball carrier that can survive alone or make an impressive solo action, so you need to wait for your cage. It doesn't take much from an opponent to slow down such a cage.

Cheers
Martin

[Ulfast]

But is a cage our only option to score? Can´t we have other tactics too? Anyone tried something else?

[plasmoid]

Well, you could try a loose cage rather than a tight cage

But seriously, sure, you could try an open running/passing playing style, but you'd be about as succesful as elfs trying to outbash dwarfs. But it's always an option.

Pick up (4+) without the cover of your mates, maybe make a pass (4+?) and try to catch it. Then, if it's still your turn, any kind of decent marking should force you to do several 4+ or even 5+ dodges to reach the endzone with your MA5/6 player.

It can be done. IMO doesn't mean that it should (unless you're out of options).

Now, if you have your opponent down to 6 men then go for it

[Ulfast]

Totally true plasmoid. Still fun to to dream about a succesful passing game with my undeads . You are totally true that it´s not our strenght and we need to focus on them. But if we focus on a thight cage with a lot of blocking going on, what do we need to make it as much possibly as it goes?

[someone2040]

Hmm... I thought I jumped in this thread early on, but like a lot of my posts, probably typed up a long one... retyped it, and then decided not to post it in the end.

Crazy people... building a passing option with Khemri? Just a waste of TV. That combination may get you a touchdown every now and then, but solid skill choices will come into it more often than that. I definately wouldn't trade my guard skeleton for a diving catch one, a semi-mobile guard is a useful piece and allows the Blitz-Ra's to focus on other skills like tackle and frenzy.

Really, I agree with Plasmoid. The loss of mighty blow means, we're just 4 strength 5 guys. We aren't taking people off the pitch any faster than black orcs (Ok, slightly faster because it's easier to get 2 dice blocks). And then we've got a team of skeletons to back them up instead of a team of Orcs. Our bash game starts off 'meh' for a bashy team, so you gotta focus on that rather than eccentric passing options that are no better than a generic human team and are costing more in TV.

[mattgslater]

Totally true plasmoid. Still fun to to dream about a succesful passing game with my undeads

Undead, with a capital U, can develop a credible passing game. They have guys who can kind of catch, and in enough quantity to mold them into catchers. If a Wight or Ghoul gets a double or +AG, he can become a decent passer at 16 SPP. With both (or two doubles) and 31 SPP, he can actually hit the point of diminishing returns on passing development. But AG2 doesn't like being the primary or secondary out, and passing isn't important enough to bypass A skills for on a team that starts with massive deficiencies. Eventually, an Acc/KOR/Block Thro-Ra can have you QP'ing into loose cages; that's as close as you can get, and it takes the supporting Guard and Stand Firm to make it reliable, because you don't have (read: can't afford to develop) any receivers.

You could probably develop a reverse play. If the defense breaks contain too soon, rather than trying to advance a poor cage, you can build a tough structure from the failed hedge, and QP or SP into that structure at end of turn. Yeah, it's probably a turnover, but it's also probably going onto your turf, where your #2 TR is 3/4 to pick it up (this implies you're taking a #2 TR). It's still a cage game. I do it all the time with my Orcs, but that's 'cause Orc Throwers usually hit and Orc Blitzers only bobble 1/3 of the balls, rather than 1/2.

[mattgslater]

Got a 3TTD last night with rookie Khemri. I played the first half against my buddy's Skaven. I won the toss and elected to receive, figuring I didn't have the ability to march downfield against any number of Skaven if I took any damage in the first half. He tried to defend with a Zig, while I put up a 2TE wishbone, using a TG and the Blitz-Ra centerfield and dropping back two Thro-Ras in the 2-columns to retrieve. The ball went shallow (he targeted the center, and it went three downfield/right and scattered upfield/left), I got Cheering Fans, and I immediately put up an ironclad cage.

The Wishbone vs. the Ziggu-Rat


The force was not with him in the first two turns, plus he took an out-of-order risk and paid for it, and he suffered a niggled linerat, a dead Stormvermin and a dead linerat. Figuring to be a good sport, and seeing no KOs and wanting to get on the board before Nuffle changed his mind, I marched downfield and scored quickly. He got a QS on the next drive, but flubbed the GFI to make the 1TTD (he only tried it because I broke his spirit; had he been playing smart, he would have rushed out a receiving pattern and dropped back for a step-up-and-chuck-it kind of play, spreading the field into all four quadrants rather than mushing the action up in my backfield). He forced me to pass to get out of my backfield, but the pass worked. Unfortunately, he had the Gutter Runner of Steel, who kept making 5+ dodges and got two knockdowns and a push on half-die blitzes, and we spent the rest of the half scrumming in his backfield over the ball. I finally got it all lined up for a T8TD, but my Thro-Ra rolled 3-2 on the pickup.

Going into the 2nd half. I kick. I took 2x Thro-Ra (happy I did too, as it meant I had a guy in position all the time), 1x Blitz-Ra, 4x TG, 4x Skel and 3x TRR. The Rats have remaining 3x Linerat, 1x SV, 1x Thrower, 4x GR, 3x TRR. I think he has to either score fast and hope I blow my offense, or dance about in his backfield for a couple turns, then go for a quick score on T4. Because I have two more men and will be getting 3d blocks left and right, I'm hoping to make him think speed; it worked earlier, but he was all psyched out after losing 140k of TV in 2 minutes.

I'm thinking about a deepish defense that uses the TGs to hold out the strong points. I'm normally not a fan of 303 lines, but he has no Frenzy, and can't commit the manpower to taking it down; I want to minimize the risk of chainpush off a QS without having to use TGs to do it.

I know, I know, the title of the D says 3-3-5, but it's really a 3-5-3. Those distinctions are mostly arbitrary. The theory is that no matter who you blitz, you have to dodge (or blitz at 1/2 die) to cover the safeties. I moved the Blitz-Ra up a square in case the attempt to pen fails, so I can blitz with Block. But if I back him up a square, he maintains a square screen with the Thro-Ras, and you really need a square screen if you're trying to hedge out a Gutter Runner. But the TGs at midfield are just too much trouble, no? Is this an argument for going 101 on the line instead, to try to gum up the works on interior blitzes?

Is this better than a standard 202 or 303 Arrowhead? I mean, that forces 'em to the inside for a moment, but I don't know what that's worth vs. MA9. It's also possible to give up 2d on the edge in this defense, by dodging a GR behind one of the TGs at 3+.

Maybe I should run an Arrowhead with parallel wings/flanks, because I don't care if I give up one assist. That also lets me put the Blitz-Ra as a safety, but if he uses dodges to break free with the GRs he can mark all the guys in range. What to do? How about a "Crossbow" formation with inverted wings? Normally, you need Side Step, but ST5 is sort of a substitute. That would let me protect my Thro-Ras in the wide zones, so they'd be free to handle breakaways. But it's kind of a shallow defense, not good against a team with 4x MA9.

[Ulfast]

I´m to new to this game too know what a "crossbow" or an "arrowhead" formation meens but those two tactics you posted lookted very good. I will try the 3-5-3 specially. Looks very intersting. Good to score 3 TD as we mostly only get 1 or 2 TD at the most.

What do you think about our speed, can our 6 in M keep a momentum to score?

Other questions , I also think we can makea possibly passing game but it need many skills so it will take time to build up. Until then we need to build up our other strenght, that meens to bash people up Need to get those SPP

[mattgslater]

I´m to new to this game too know what a "crossbow" or an "arrowhead" formation meens but those two tactics you posted lookted very good. I will try the 3-5-3 specially. Looks very intersting.

Glad you asked.

Arrowhead

This is a popular defense for teams with multiple big guys and a reason not to (or no reason to) use them on the line. Visions of Chaos Pact dance in my head, but I frequently use this defense with Chaos or low-TV Undead. The big drawback is that the midfielders are on an island, and if they're just pushed, the opponent can open a hole. It's best when you're not that worried about your opponent opening a hole (say, you trust your safeties), or when you don't think they can (if your midfielders are just really, really tough).

Crossbow

Note that the wingers (W1, W2) need Side Step or some other way to keep a TZ on the wide zone. This is a good formation for the undeady teams that have powerful guys to clog up the middle and can easily get ST3 Side Step with Block and/or Dodge. The flankers (F1, F2) are protected, so at least two men will be free to range the backfield.

Another Arrowhead

This one is a "101" formation, meaning the linemen are placed in the middle (the 0 column) and on either side (1). The others are "202" formations, meaning there's an empty space (the 1 column) in between the linemen. The centerfielder and safety are in a "trap" formation, meaning that you would naturally block only one guy, but he has a buddy behind him, so if you push him and follow, you're in the other one's TZ. The midfielder and flanker are in a square fence formation, so to blitz one from the diagonal requires using a man to pull the other one off. But only the midfielder is in a key position; a blitz on the flanker just reveals a wedge screen between the midfielder and the winger; to get through that is two dodges. So once again, the weight falls on the midfielder.

Another Arrowhead, more compact

This one brings the wingers in one square, and the flankers in-and-up one square (back him up one if you're expecting to get chained more than once, unless you have exactly 2 turns on the clock). It's stouter against interior runs, but it cedes the sidelines. This is stronger against teams without too much MA, like many bash teams. Speed teams will drive a screen behind your guys and chuck to daylight on the next turn. The deep safety can handle a couple guys, though, so teams that are mostly MA6 will have to make something happen.

Good to score 3 TD as we mostly only get 1 or 2 TD at the most.

Oh, no, I'm not that cool. I scored in 3 turns. That's the first secret to a 3-TD game, but I didn't get the rest of it. After that, you have to take the ball away (which I did), and then score (which I didn't). We're still at halftime, and I'm only up 1-0.

What do you think about our speed, can our 6 in M keep a momentum to score?

Sometimes, definitely. Reliably, not so sure. I had my opponent grossly overpowered in the second drive. Because he botched a 1TTD attempt (a silly, gratuitous, counterproductive 1TTD attempt ), it was basically a second offensive drive, for which I had four turns, and didn't quite get it done (I got downfield, but got cracked a couple times, and failed my final pick-up).

Other questions , I also think we can makea possibly passing game but it need many skills so it will take time to build up.

Don't bother. Really, really don't bother.

This is what I'm planning on doing with a "passing game":
1) If any non-TG rolls an 11, +AG it is. He might QP or receive.
2) The #2 Thro-Ra is a retriever, and it would be nice if he could chuck into a fence-cage should the ball go deep (if the alternative is GFI'ing into a handoff or handing off to a suboptimal carrier, which is often the case). Normal skill progression is Kick-Off Return, then Accurate, or maybe that player gets adapted from #1 (Block first), depending on how the dice fall. The #1 Thro-Ra may nab Accurate as a #3 or #4 selection.
3) There are passing options that don't always require an accurate throw or a catch. Since AG doesn't matter for fumbling, the Thro-Ra is as good as a Human. You can mark and throw quick passes, as long as you're chucking away from your mark. This tends to happen only after you've built a numerical advantage, so load up on Block, Mighty Blow, Stand Firm and Dirty Player to make what passing you can do that much safer.

[mattgslater]

Ooh... There are no 1d blocks to be had on the wingers or midfielders. He can still get 3+/2+ up midfield, which with Dodge is like an unskilled 2+ in terms of odds (1x Tackle, just one, will solve this). But to do it he has to blitz. I wish i had another Block player, so I could make that blitz 8/9, but rather now I have to settle for hoping for help from the line or from fate. Even so, the fact remains that this is the net as nets go, and given the limited MA on this team, it's about as mobile as any net can be. Plus it forces the action to the middle, and will keep the Stormvermin out.

Should I move the Blitz-Ra up one?

[Ulfast]

Mattgslater, you are the best. Those diffrent tactics and formations really helped me to understand much better how to put up my team on the pitch. So nice to see it in graphic and get a grasp about it.

My tactics are usually otherwise to put the strong guys in the front but I have found that it doesn´t work so good. To use this deeper defence seems much more intersting as my "way" always seemd to be vurnably. Because if the other team got past the first "wall" it was hardly nothing left to stop him.

So this is awsome tactics. also nice to see that your basic teams is similiar to mine with two thro-ras. I just think they are very import, specially as they are the best in picking up the ball and is weak so they easy take damage. You need a reserve

For your question: no, I wouldn´t move up the blitz-ra. It´s good to have some depth in your defence (you taught me that right now)

[mattgslater]

Those Khemri formations are strictly situational. I have to warn you that teams that can get 2d on the TGs on the wings will beat that defense, and you should run either an Arrowhead or a Ziggurat or something similar.

I used to put my strongest guys on the line all the time, but I've learned better. If your D-line can totally dominate, you can do that, but if it'll just get knocked down anyway, don't bother. Likewise, if by taking the big stuff off the D-line you can make your opponent's job much harder, then you should. But a lot of it is situational. If I were missing a TG, I'd probably put all three on the line, because three guys can't man the whole width of the field.

Oh, and check this out. Maybe go back and read the whole thread, but on this page of the thread, James_Probert compiles many of the common defensive setups.

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=29010&start=60

[Smurf]

Hahahaha

You can only put the strongest members of the team on the LOS if your opponent cannot knock them down.

I think it took 2 games of playing chaos to stop going 'up front' with big guys.

[mattgslater]

You'd be surprised how many people never get it.

I think one of the things that throws people is that the big guys tend to have the best AV, and they hate seeing line-fodder die. Also, if your line is heavy enough to pull your opponent's Guard players or big guys in, it may be worth it sometimes, especially on a short clock. But IME, they tend to be too valuable to leave up on the LOS against bashers, with a few exceptions (like Orc Trolls; why play Orcs if you don't mean to own the LOS?).

[GalakStarscraper]

I´m to new to this game too know what a "crossbow" or an "arrowhead" formation meens but those two tactics you posted lookted very good. I will try the 3-5-3 specially. Looks very intersting.

Glad you asked.

Arrowhead

This is a popular defense for teams with multiple big guys and a reason not to (or no reason to) use them on the line.

My standard defense set up with my Halfling team when I have Deeproot in fact ... (ie multiple big guys and then some ... )