Norse and Amazon

[Pink Horror]

Is it just me, or are Norse a little too weak (even though they start strong enough) and Amazons a little too strong? Would anyone else like to tweak them both a bit for a little more character and maybe even a little more balance?

I think we'd only have to change the skill access. Here's the changes:

Norse Lineman: Strength only
Norse Thrower: Strength and Passing
Norse Catcher: Strength and Agility
Norse Blitzer: Strength and General

Amazon Lineman: Agility only
Amazon Thrower: Agility and Passing
Amazon Catcher: Agility and General
Amazon Blitzer: Agility and Strength

Why should every team start with General as its base? I think Norse and Amazons are both crazy enough that maybe general skills don't suit them well as a base. This change has the balance effects of taking Blodge away from the average Amazon and giving Norse some better linemen. Now, instead of just being the Block team, Norse are the Block & Strength team, and instead of Amazons being the Dodge team, they're the Dodge & Agility team.



Pink Horror

[Furelli]

Dodge and agility is pretty much covered by both the Halfies and the Gobbos.

No if I was changing them I would increase all the prices by 10k and add +1 AV to all Norse and +1 MV to all Amazon. I would also reduce the cost of the Norse re-roll by 10k.

Furelli.

[DoubleSkulls]

I don't really see why Amazons get cheap rerolls, while Norse get expensive ones. Since they are basically two sides of the same coin it ought to make sense for them both to be 50k.

I suspect its because Block is considered superior skill to dodge, but in long term development dodge across the board is fantastic, especially when your players normally need doubles and 4 of them start with Block/Dodge anyway. After a few games (~10) most of an amazon team could have block, dodge - and buckets of rerolls...

[Norse]

My stance on this is a little more drastic:

Humans are humans, right? So why should they all start differently?

All human teams should have the same basic stats for linemen, catchers, throwers and blitzers...

Norse can then sacrifice -1 AV in exchange for Block (Frenzy for blitzers)

Amazons can then sacrifice -1 AV in exchange for Dodge (Jump Up for Catchers)

This way, all human teams have the same basic stat template, but their racial origins play a part on their skills. I know others can explain the fact that Amazon catchers are MA6 and ST3, but I think it makes little sense all told.. If you did this, it would be easy enough to make other humans too:

Bretonnians sacrifice -1MA, but all gain Stand Firm (or similar)

Kislevites sacrifice -1AV, but all gain Tackle

etc etc etc

just my usual crap..

[Marcus]

You know what. I really like that idea. Not entirely convinced it doesn't make zons a little too powerful tho. Dodge is a doubles skill for a human.

Like the general idea tho. Never been overly keen on the 6337 template.

Marcus

[Anthony_TBBF]

I think the Amazons are probably a littel too overpowered, Dodge across the board is pretty killer along with those insanely cheap rerolls.

Norse on the other hand are cool they way they are IMO, they have done consistently well in our league anyways.

[Anthony_TBBF]

Here's an idea:

In the new Chaos Armies book for Warhammer it describes the Norse as one of the Marauder groups, so really the Norse aren't really "Viking Humans" anymore, they are Chaos Marauders. How about giving them access to Mutations?

[Mestari]

Is it just me, or are Norse a little too weak (even though they start strong enough) and Amazons a little too strong? Would anyone else like to tweak them both a bit for a little more character and maybe even a little more balance?

You're not the only one. I recently played in a league that I was not commishing and in which the amazon team had been banned because it had been (under practically any decent coach) overpowered (except against dwarves, but that's really not the issue).

A few hours earlier I lost long post (this time my IE crashed) about the Amazeons where I had calculated the statistical effect of dodge to base my argument that they are overpowered... Blodge after 1 skill increase is just too much to have for every player on a team. Especially given that elves need 16 SPP nowadays to do the same.

If the current line-up is to be kept, I'd recommend:

Amazons:
Increase the TRR cost to 50k at least, preferably 60k
Perhaps give catchers +1MA
Linewomen get Block (or some other skill) instead of Dodge.

Norse:
Perhaps increase the AV of linemen to 8 ?
I'd perhaps prefer their catchers to be changed into runners and given blodge, and price up to 90k. They might also gain +1MA.

Just wild ideas which would result in:

AMAZONS REROLLS: 50K
0-12 Linewomen 6 3 3 7 Block 50K
0-2 Catchers 7 3 3 7 Dodge, Catch 70K
0-2 Throwers 6 3 3 7 Dodge, Pass 70K
0-4 Blitzers 6 3 3 7 Block,Dodge 90K

No more easy Blodge for linewomen = team would most certainly no longer be too powerful. +1MA from catcher could be removed, though.

NORSE REROLLS: 60K
0-12 Linemen 6 3 3 8 Block 50K
0-2 Runners 7 3 3 7 Block Dodge 90K
0-2 Throwers 6 3 3 7 Block, Pass 70K
0-4 Blitzers 6 3 3 7 Block, Frenzy, Jump Up 90K

A runner type instead of catcher type to distinguish the team better from the amazons. Linemen are no longer as fragile as they used to be and the team has a decent runner (the +1MA could be removed, though).

AND FOR NUFFLE'S SAKE, DON'T YOU EVER COME UP WITH OFFICIAL BRETTONIANS!!!

[Dangerous Dave]

I agree that Amazon are way superior to Norse (although I like playing Norse!) in the medium to long term. The main reasons for this are:-


1) The ease of getting Blodge on ALL players

2) The cheap rerolls


So, if Amazon need to be downgraded these are the 2 areas for consideration.


I think that PH's suggestions certainly down grade the Amazons. The problem is that only 2 players have access to General skills. Whilst this stops the Blodge combo, it also stops Throwers getting Sure Hands.

The loss of general skills to the Norse team will hurt them (Sure Hands, Tackle and Strip Ball gone) - with only 4 players having access to General skills - and these the "unreliable" Blitzers - because of Frenzy.


So I would change the Skills access as follows (since when have throwers been either strong or agile?):-


Norse Thrower: General and Passing
Amazon Thrower: General and Passing


and change the starting skills on the Amazon thrower to:-


Amazon Thrower: Sure Hands, Pass


OK this takes the Amazons away from an all dodge team.... but..... so what!



As for the Amazon rerolls make them 50k.



Finally, the 6337 stats are a little tedious. However, having no players faster than anyone else etc does create a team you have to play differently. So I am happy to keep them as is...... just don't want to see any more 6337 teams (eg Bretonnians!).



Dave

[Vesticle]

One thing to note, is that dodge is a bit of a 'risky' skill, in that it has a direct-counter skill in tackle. Playing a non-dwarf team or team without a lot of tacklers leads to a significant advantage, as most people have recognized and put up mathematical arguments for. However, if an Amazon team ends up against a Dwarf team, as far as I'm able to see, they're mostly SOL. In contrast, if a Norse team faces a Dwarf team, they're block becomes less useful offensively (you can't knock the opponent down and stay standing on a double-down) but it's still useful defensively to nullify the Dwarf's block, and still useful to decrease the chance of turnovers while blocking.

Any other ideas? I'm probably missing some, having not actually played this game that often.

David

[Mestari]

However, if an Amazon team ends up against a Dwarf team, as far as I'm able to see, they're mostly SOL.

Which, IMHO, is pretty stupid: no other team has a so obvious "counter-team" than amazons. Therefore I'd still like to give linewomen something else instead of dodge. Block would be the obious choice, as the change to Block wouldn't make the team get too much worse.

[NightDragon]

I think all human teams need to be stronger if they are going to compete against the true strength and agility teams. Never played Amazon, but if your saying they are strong I say leave them alone. Norse in my experience just get duffed up badly. One team in my league didn't survive the season, Orcs killed 5 players in one game and then in the very next Skaven killed a further 6! So they need an extra AV. Your basic human team needs to improve, I would say a higher MA would suffice.

[Acerak]

Teemu - You think Lizardmen match up well against Dwarfs? Amazons and Dwarfs enjoy a unique relationship. I haven't seen an Amazon team that didn't find opportunities to use the Dodge skill against Dwarf teams, so I hardly think they're "SOL." (What, you've seen Dwarf squads that regularly field 11 Longbeards?)

I think Norse are right on par with Amazons, and I don't subscribe to the "short term, long term" mantra. It's one thing to talk about Blodge on all Amazons after one skill roll. It's another thing entirely to get it. And what are you giving your Norse Linemen for a second skill? It ought to be Pro or Tackle, with an occasional Kick, Dirty Player, or Leader thrown in.

This argument is all in the framing and the coaching. Norse Lineman are much better blockers than Amazon Linewomen, especially head to head. Those same Linewomen have a better chance to dodge away, but that's it. Add Block to one and Tackle to the other and they're dead even head to head.

But who goes around feeding TDs to their Linewomen? Right, Mr. Theoretical does

Norse Blitzers are better, and you get more bang for your buck. (I mean, adding 40K to the basic Amazon Linewoman for the addition of the Block skill? C'mon.) They also get a Big Guy. I think the re-roll costs are just about spot on. Maybe the Amazons could be boosted to 50K - again, maybe - and it wouldn't affect gameplay too much. But it would make them a poorer side for starters, and I haven't seen a good reason why this should be done. Amazons have definite limitations. They have no strengths aside from Dodge and the re-roll price. They have a definite drawback in AV7.

So we have a middling team, with no above-average stats, a few nice (but overpriced) players, they do pretty well if they avoid a punch-up before coaches start giving their players Tackle, they have no Big Guy and they didn't get any extra position players to account for this...and they're overpowered?

As an Amazon coach, I'm not buying it. The guys doing the suggesting are the same ones who coach the opposing teams and refuse to invest in Tackle

ObNorse: 6338, Block for 50K?

-Chet

[Thadrin]

I think Amazons and Norse are both FINE....with one small quibble.

Why on earth do Amazons get such mindblowingly cheap rerolls? Boost the cost at least 10k, preferably 20k.

[Zy-Nox]

If you want to give Amazons something instead of Dodge...what about some hair curlers or make up.
I think both teams are fine, but I'd like to know why Amazon Rerolls only cost 40k?