Lizards team tactics help

[Bizzy]

I need help with Lizardmen. I know they are one of the best teams in all of blood bowl, because of how well distributed their players are half ST half AG. Half beatsticks, half crunchy fast buggers.

But that doesn't explain how to develop and create a good Lizardmen team and keep them healthy. I am not going to be able to play them until the end of a couple of things that is going on and most likely until I can pick up the pieces (I like owning my own figureines before using a team) But rather then start out dim witted and losing a lot of games (I have done that before!) I would post a thread about them in hope that someone out there or maybe even multiple people could help me out. Post your own lizardmen progress, your own teams, and how your doing. If we can develop this bad boy into a thread that the Khemri one or just others in general have become some really good Lizardmen help can be added to help them out.

I was thinking of a roster to start out with something like this

4 Saurus
7 Skinks
8 Fan Factor
3 Rerolls

I don't know if there is anything better to start out with then this?

I figure after the first game enough money should be earned to have an apothecary this way the guys that die won't stay dead YAY.

Now here inlies a few problems that of course we all know how to face. One would be my previous teams played and how my play style will adapt to the Lizard persona. Well that will lead to a few more questions so let me pose the idea of how I play.

My first team was Necromantic, and the second and current team Khemri. Both are bashy undead teams without an apothecary, so one question is what do I allow to stay as an injury and what to I apothecary? One thing I know how to do is protect weakling players such as werewolves (HA weakling I think not, but they are fragile and don't regenerate so fragile not just weak) Skinks are fraigile and weak, but the Saurus can protect them with the best of them.

One big question is how do I progress my Saurai? I know block on all 6 is a great idea to start with, but after that the skill selection is endless. Break Tackle? Guard? Mighty Blow? Strip Ball? Tackle? There is such selection I just wouldn't know how to order the skill selection and what order to pick it up in. Also since the above roster contains an incomplete team what order do I pick them up in? Fill out Saurai first, then pick up skinks, or do I get a saurus, then skink then krox?

I know this is a lot of questions and people feel free to just post about anything you want and how you feel about this and what you can do to help me out here. Thanks in advance
Bizzy

[Brokje]

I would start out with at least 5 Sauri, prolly even 6.

6 Sauri 480 k
5 Skinks 300 k
3 RR 180 k
4 FF 40 k

If you want higher ff start with a skink instead of a saurus.

I would never use my apo for anything less then a MNG. Don't get to attached to your skinks, because with stunty and av 7 they will die.

Skills on sauri: first a breack tackler, because othewrwise they will be neutralized by cheap linos. Then a mix of block, breack tackle, tackle and mighty blow. On doubles stand firm.

For the skinks I woould go with sidestep (on table top team) or catch/sure feet. On doubles take sure hands first, then block.

[Laerderon]

I went like Bizzy in my league and haven't lost for 20 matches. A high FF is essential for generating enough money in order to get those missing Sauri and the Krox. Also to get new Skinks, if needed.

My tactic was just to get them loose their RR and avoid Turnovers myself. Therefore I gave my Sauri Block as first Skill. Far too often you would need RR for bad dices, so block. Afterwards a mixture of Guard and Breack Tackle. You wont get much more than 2 Skills with Sauri for a long time.

Same for skinks... Avoiding RR/Turnover. So first Skill is Catch. Second one is Sidestep. On doubles go for sure hands, at least one or two. Next doubles go for block in order to have something for lonely Gutterrunners or ballcarriers. Third Skill should be something like Diving Tackle. Maybe Tackle. A Sidestep/Diving Tackle Skink is pretty annoying.

Use stunty. Always try to get some of your skinks to the enemy ballcarrier, if you can't block him with sauri. This will slow him down and he has to block/blitz him. You might loose skinks this way, but he will loose assistance for his ballcarrier and you might be able to block him.

At offence, you might wanna go both sidelines with skinks, both within 8zones from your ballcarrier. So you can choose which side is better to get you the touchdown. This is BloodBowl. Skinks might get hurt. Use your Sauri to open the gate and your Skinks to follow the path.

[narkotic]

I went like Bizzy in my league and haven't lost for 20 matches.

Exluding the forfeit

[Laerderon]

guess you're not right As you might now, I lost my 21st match vs. Skaven. Or was it the 20th? not sure. And the forfeit... Guess my opponent told something a bit different Anyway, this thread is about lizards, not me

[Bizzy]

That sounds like an awesome little string of victories you put together. Please tell me that you won a league with that many wins? If not you should have. I was thinking though of a different route with the team. Using them more as a bash force from two different directions. Sorta using the skinks as fast little buggers that are even bad to be next too. Like give skinks diving tackle to keep the other team from becoming scared of seeing them around even. That is an idea I had. But I don't know how it would work out. Maybe give the skinks like sidestep, diving tackle combo. Then on a doubles take sure hands, and block. Maybe even tackle depending on your luck. On a Saurai you give them skills more like block, break tackle, or guard. Also throw out tackle sparingly and two stripballers. This way you have the field secure right?

The one thing I found that could become problematic is kick, and dirty player. Most teams use 2 dirty players incase of a foul war, and ejection. But with this team if your Saurai get ejected you are down good men, and if your skinks can't get dirty player unles it is doubles, in which case there are usually better selections for a versatile non-general access player such as a skink then Dirty player or kick. So how do you guys cope without normal good access to these skills. This and pass block too is a good skill you don't have regular access to with this team?

[juck101]

I know they are one of the best teams in all of blood bowl, because of how well distributed their players are half ST half AG.

Yep but to beat them all you have to do is destroy the AG and they then have a huge problem. So your job - simple keeps skinks alive and in good positions. Try to protect them and threaten the ball when you can... that will distract them from killing you to a degree.

I agree with most of what has been posted but I would go for BT on first skilled saurus. They can get shut down if you dont have at least one. Also ihmo they can take advantage of good luck more than any team. Get 3 or 4 2d blocks, pick up the ball, extra square without a RR and you should be laughing.

[Laerderon]

Yeah, won a saison in our league, today I won my quarter final for this saison. Semi Final will be Chaos or Dwarfs, Final might be Scaven. Guess I won't win this saison.

I disagree about break tackle as first skill for sauri. That's not what they are made for. True, sometimes I wish I had more with break tackle. But it is essential to get them block. Elsewhise you will loose too many rerolls needed for your skinks (dodge vs. tackle, ball handling). Sauri open the path, the don't use it. At least as long as your opponent don't play foolish enough. Sauri are your way to bash your enemies, to open holes, to bind their players. Therefore it's extremly usefull to have at least one skink with block. Having two is even better. Use your skinks to get to enemy ball carriers (as long as sauri are bond). I usually play with 6 Sauri and the Kroxigor. That's more than enough power for bashing. The remaining 4 Skinks are just for ball handling and getting to enemy ball carriers.

Like already mentioned, Skinks take Catch as first, Sidestep as second Skill. Afterwards you can think about Diving Tackle, as long as you don't get any doubles. If you're interested, you can find my team here:

http://people.freenet.de/optokoax/siccl ... Guard.html

Got 4 kills and 4 serious wounded vs. Dwarfs and undead, in combination with a houserule (-2 for money dice for teams above 200tr) I won't play it again after this saison.

Tackle and Strip Ball? Till now there was no space for that. But as you will force turnovers because of putting tackle zones and be able to score in two turns, it's not that neccessary. (depends on your enemies... within a league of many Scaven, you should think about it.

[Bizzy]

In my league we differentiate between things as Orc to WElf. We have every sort of player you can imagine, hear this as a variety of opponents

Dwarf
2x-Chaos
3x-Orc
3x-Dark Elves
Amazons
Undead
High Elves
Halflings (guy is just trying to have fun with a "bad" team and having a blast doing it)
Necro(thats me so doesn't really count)

Plus more I just can't remember at the moment. The thing is this, when teams get doubles they either go one of three routes. Those routes are guard, diving tackle, or dodge. One orc player has been giving his blitzers dodge on doubles, while another orc player gives all blitzers, and black orcs Stand Firm, Frenzy on doubles. But for the majority of people they go the three routes I mentioned.

Strong teams that lack AG access go either guard on linemen, or diving tackle, and dodge on the runner type of players. AG based ST lacking teams have been going the guard route, sometimes throwing in a jump up here or there.

My problem is this though I spoke to the league champ who is an orc player (the one going with dodge on blitzers). He brought up a good point to me. If I use the break tackle route I will be weaker then most of the Bash Teams out in my league who will have block first skill. Then second skill when I get block they get guard. So I am going to lose the 2 dice my favor. He said I may have more ST on the field but with guard he has upper hand and to be honest he is right on that. Then he runs up beats up skinks and scores. I didn't like that whole idea. He is my friend and always talking smack about any team I play but he did have some valid points with that.

What do you think about his points he made

[juck101]

If I use the break tackle route I will be weaker then most of the Bash Teams out in my league who will have block first skill. Then second skill when I get block they get guard.

Yes and No.

Yes a couple of players with BT and then block will be weaker compared to an orc blocker. But they are playing to their strength. One of the major advantages of lizards is speed - to ignore it is not using them to the full. Lizards need a couple of BT saftey players to ensure that you are not stuck out of position. A great player can tie up your saurus and leave you with a skink too blitz with - thats another thing a ST3 orc does differently.

And No you wont be 'weaker' as you have seven players with st4. 2 get BT+block, but that still leaves 5 with block and guard. Most orc teams will be more varied than liz so I dont think they will ever be less bash. Some times its an arms races to gain skills but i think 5 block lizards and 2 saftey BT players wont ever be out bashed and appear weak.

[Brokje]

Yup, agree with juck.
Alternatively, or if you get a lot of skills, strip ball and/or tackle are also good skills on the BT-Sauri, to get the ball from those nasty catcher-types.
Diving tackle (see other topic) combined with sidestep can also be a real pain. If your other skinks goes for the td, the opponent must choose between a risky dodge or blocking the skink, in which case you will score.

[Larris]

This is the thread I've been lurking for all these months. Thanks for providing it, Bizzy.

My own Lizardman team hasn't started league play yet, but experimenting with one-off games has given me some pointers. When the league starts it'll probably just be three regular (inexperienced) players with visiting coaches dropping by for guest matches. Regular teams: Dwarf, Undead and us lizzies.

When I started planning the team originally, I based it for some reason around the skinks, not the sauri. Juggling around with several options for starting rosters, here are some that I have thought of:

A.
4 Sauri
8 Skinks
8 Fan Factor
2 Re-rolls

This is still tempting, but only two re-rolls seems too little in hindsight given their price doubling once the league has started.

B.
3 Sauri
8 Skinks
9 Fan Factor
3 Re-rolls
10k in treasury

I made several rosters with only 3 Sauri. I even tested one and won against Undead.

C.
Bizzy's and Laerderon's roster (only substituted Apo for FF - one-off test game, won against Dwarf.)

So you see, the strength of the Sauri had not yet impressed me all that much, but I would naturally still prioritize buying Sauri for replacing skinks on the defensive LOS right after the apothecary contract was secured.

Forcing the opposing coach into burning his re-rolls markers seems like a sound strategy. The trick would be to be able to hassle his players so that he's forced to take chances with weak contingency plans. And in order to provide this enjoyable harassment, one has to stay flexible while playing it safe.

The philosophy of speed and versatility (more MV = more options) against slow movers like Undead and Dwarf has paid off in test matches, but it requires that I have enough quick players eligible for movement in any given turn. Which subsequently means that I must

1. try to protect the skinks I have, and
2. make sure I can deal with casualties (apothecary, reserves).

For the first point, I have found that Sauri can act like magnets on opposing players. The time-honored tactic of working the Sauri in pairs aids me in keeping the opposition where I want them, too. The second point isn't very pressing in the starting matches anyway. A third point in the future would be to further mobilize the Sauri as well, giving them skills like Break Tackle and even Shadowing.

I was surprised to discover that the philosophy of playing with many skinks appears to be uncommon. Instead, Lizardman coaches very often seem to try and max out the muscle: Six Sauri and/or a Kroxigor on the starting eleven, leaving the poor ball to be handled by as few as four or five quick but woefully fragile skinks. There are only two fundamental game mechanical differences between a skink and a halfling or a goblin: the MV and the price. And IMO the price is worth it.

This is another reason I elect to buy more skinks than Sauri at first:
I've had some luck using skinks for blocking. With their high mobility it's not at all hard for a skink to summon a couple of buddies in order to attempt a two dice block against a ST 3 opposing player. It's possible I've just been lucky, though.

An important factor weighing against the importance I place on the skinks, and this has not come up yet in this round of the discussion, is this: Most of the skink players will prematurely die or be forced into retirement, and the Sauri acquire star player points slowly as they are forced to rely on casualty and MVP SPPs. With an overrepresentation of skinks on the roster, the MVPs will rarely land on a Saurus. Especially for long leagues is this something that must be considered carefully.

I think I now have decided to go with roster C in our micro-league. Wish me luck.

[Bizzy]

From my play as a Blood Bowl player in general I can tell you, that getting more Saurai>Skinks at first is key. Maybe they aren't as agile, but think about it, on the list of how a player can get SPP what way is easiest other then MVP. Scoring TD's. So Saurai, need Casualities, and MVPs to develop, maybe the occassional interception will occur but it is rare. So they need to be present more then a skink does to develop. If you start with lots of Saurai and only a few skinks the likely hood that your Saurai will get the MVP goes up greatly. This way the skink that scored 2 TD's and is getting skill 1 at the end of the game doesn't get MVP as well. That would give him 11 points, and can you tell me you won't see that and say "hmmm maybe I can pick up his second skill next game." Then that skink gets spoiled leaving the rest with nothing, and if he dies your scoring game is dead too.

I think that your best bet is to go more Saurai then other players because in early games no matter who you play with the exception too dwarves, norse, and amazons you will get 2 more knock downs then he will. Having for example starting with 4 Saurai and 7 skinks is thinking smart. It provides you a solid reroll count, and good FF for rebuying. Plus any player will start with usually never as many ST high guys as you and if they do, then they will be losing more often then you will be due to them having less rerolls, and if you kill something due to their lack of FF they won't have nearly as many re purchases as you can.

Playing a team you have 4 ST4 guys and the rest ST2. You can bash out a line usually without a problem, and then use your stunties to gang-bang someone, and score. If the ball goes out of bounds I would give it to a Saurai every single time. They need points, and if your team has some guard he will be nearly impossible to hit with floating skink protectors, and Guard Saurai body guards.

I think that more then less ST on the team is needed, whenever one starts a stunty team they use the 2 Big Guys always starting roster, because they kinda have too. Same here just not as big and more of them

[Larris]

Thanks for illustrating the pitfalls of over-skilling the skink. I think we agree that the danger is clear and present.

And yes, granted, stunty teams need their big guys. But skinks IMO disqualify for regular stunty because of their MV8 and lack of Right Stuff...

I think high ST works better on defense with rookie Sauri IMO. When blocking, the risk of going down/spending a RR is one in nine ..per Saurus! As long as they don't have Block, that is. When defending, the Sauri will still go down, but their higher ST makes the opposing coach think twice about each block, whether his blocking players have the Block skill or not.

What we are debating here, I think, is the optimal balance between Sauri/Krox and skinks. For instance, if the opposing team dedicates three players on average to take care of each pair of our Sauri, that would mean in the case of four Sauri that we have seven skinks to do other stuff with, and the other team has only five players to foil our skinks! Conversely, if we have six Sauri, we have perhaps managed to tie up as many as nine players while our remaining five skinks can run around or gang up on the three free opponents.

But this is where the risk of losing skinks come in, and that's what worries me personally, I think. Often a couple of skinks will have been carried off the field and into the dugout around half time, but the question is whether the team can handle this loss better if there are five skinks or three skinks left on the field at this point.

(BTW, letting a Saurus start with the ball on a touchback is a no-brainer, honestly. That's what everybody would do, isn't it?)

Incidentally, with the top Lizardman scorer over on FUMBBL being a Saurus, there are several examples of Kroxigors scoring on average once every third match. There is also a JavaBBowl replay somewhere of a team of skinks only, running around and scoring against a Chaos team. And speaking of FUMBBL, the Lizardman strategy guide that Wombats has compiled over there seriously isn't half bad:

http://fumbbl.com/help:LizardmenStrategy

What I would like to debate here is kicking formations. Some coaches forego covering the flanks (not setting up players in the wide zones) on defense in favor of running more players from the middle field to the flank the opponent has chosen for his drive. Would this be a good tactic for a Lizardman team or not?

[juck101]

Dont forget the power of the skink is pretty much in trouble when leagues develop tackle. Skinks are not that weak to start a league - but will suffer after 10 game or so when blitzers have block and tackle. 8 Skinks are good to begin but will slide away and die over 12 games. Sauri tend to be pretty good investment. You need 3 maybe 4 RR early to cope with a lack of skills. Much later in life <200tr> you will probably find that 3 is plenty. Full block saurus and a lucky surehands skink plays very different to the inital teams performance.

**************

Best formation 3 saurus/krox on LOS 3others block sidelines with skinks in the row behind. Protect the skinks - bash position with the saurus - nick the ball when you get the chance.

Offense can be easy. Nice 4 sauri cage aint goint to be broken into. One or two turns of movement will have you in score range - just depends on the game if you want to wait a bit. Skink cage tends to get maimed and may be more trouble than its worth.

A screen is very good but hard for new players to set up, so maybe keep it simple. Major issue with lizard offense is not looking an idiot by protecting the ball AND picking it up turn one. If a nasty block needs a RR you can shoot yourself in the foot - probably worse team in the game to chuck a silly dice - thus extra sqaures are not an option on important turns.

I think on the best tactics post for chaos the key is to know when to play a conservative turn - and when to go full on. Similar applies to liz untill IF you get full block and surehands squad.