Pro Elf team development question

[mattgslater]

Hey, I have a question. I'm tired of playing Orcs, and I was thinking on starting with Pro Elves for league play (10 scheduled games, then a tournament). I've already picked my roster, but I have a question on early team development.

I start with:
2 Blitzers
2 Throwers
7 Linemen
1 Apothecary
2 Re-rolls
7 Fan Factor

Here's my question: I want to hire two Catchers as soon as I can (I like NoS a lot), and if I end up with 100k in my treasury I'll buy a Catcher. If I have 50k or less, I'll put it aside for a Catcher next game. But if I find myself with 60k-90k in my treasury after game 1, should I hire another Lineman so I have 12 players, or should I save my money for a Catcher? Does your opinion change if a player gets killed in game 1? What if a player is SI'ed, but no-one dies?

[asidie86]

for elves you dont exactly need throwers, id pick up the 2 catchers on the starting roster, sumthing like 2 catchers a blitzer, and configure the rest, but the catchers are key with the pro elves TD machines if you keepem alive

[el sid]

I was kind of in the same position: After playing the same team all the time, I went for Pro Elfs. This was my roster I started with:

1 Blitzer
2 Catchers
2 Throwers
6 Linemen
3 Re-Rolls
1 Apo
5 FF

I played 4 games in our scheduled league. I'm quite happy with them, although I think Elf teams (all of them) miss the thrills you live through when playing Skaven. AG4 just makes everything so easy!

In hindsight I regretted taking two Throwers. I should have switched one for an extra Catcher (losing some FF, as we play Vault).

The Catchers are gold. MA8, ST3, Catch and NoS! Once you get that ball in the air, there's nothing going to stop them from catching it! And getting 3 of these nasties in the opponent's backfield makes it impossible to take out all of them.

I got lucky and rolled a double on one of them. So I picked Dump-Off. Pretty nasty again in combination with NoS...

I only have 4 games of experience with them, but my impression is the Catchers are the key of the team. So make sure you start with as many as possible!

Good luck,

el sid

[mattgslater]

for elves you dont exactly need throwers, id pick up the 2 catchers on the starting roster, sumthing like 2 catchers a blitzer, and configure the rest, but the catchers are key with the pro elves TD machines if you keepem alive

I thought about starting with a Catcher, but I can only really afford 2 expensive players without sacrificing RRs, APO or FF, all of which sound dangerous to me. I want at least one Blitzer, and I don't want to get stuck with only 1 Catcher, as he'll just be a target. Of course if I don't start with Catchers, I'll have to buy them one at a time... this is what I like about Blood Bowl: team management with Orcs is a totally different game.

I thought I'd take the Throwers because they're cheap. I mean, it makes sense for Darkies and Woodies (and High Elves to a lesser extent) to bypass Throwers, 'cause they have to pay almost as much for them as they do for other position players and their base guys are so expensive they don't have enough money for a lot of upgrades. However, Pro Elf Throwers are the same price as other elf teams' linos. There is a thread on this debate not too far down, though, so let me rephrase the question to take the focus off the starting list:

With Pro Elves at TR 100, no matter how you configure them you're going to want to buy position players after the league begins. However, these players usually take a couple of games to pay for and extra bodies are often necessary early, whether they're all-stars or schmoes. If you can afford a Lineman but not a Catcher or Blitzer with the cash you get from your first game, does the need to put more elf-meat on the board trump the need to get your position players quickly?

[mattgslater]

I was kind of in the same position: After playing the same team all the time, I went for Pro Elfs. This was my roster I started with:

1 Blitzer
2 Catchers
2 Throwers
6 Linemen
3 Re-Rolls
1 Apo
5 FF

Hmm... That does look a lot better, but it's 1,060,000gp. If I've only got a million, then what should I sack? If I take out the Throwers and one Blitzer for two Catchers and a Lineman, I only have to pay 1FF... I could live with FF6. However, the basic question still stands (though we might be talking about the relative merits of buying a Lineman or Thrower vs. saving for a Blitzer as opposed to buying a Lineman vs. saving for a Catcher).

[dendron]

So I started pro elfs with 2 blitzers and the rest lineman which was not good enough IMO. So I would change to:

1 Blitzer
2 Catcher
8 Lineman
6 FF
3 RR

I didn't buy an Apo to get a third reroll! So after game 1 you should buy an Apo. Afterwards you can I would buy a player which could be an Thrower, Lineman, Blitzer or Catcher but it depends on your money. So you should start with a high FF! If yould buy a Blitzer first before buying a third catcher! Two cathcer is enough in most of the cases. You have to watch out to spread out your SPP, so that a MVP will bring most of your players a skill or trait....
Good Luck with your team.

Dendron

[mattgslater]

Afterwards you can I would buy a player which could be an Thrower, Lineman, Blitzer or Catcher but it depends on your money.

So you think that if I get 60k in the first game I should go ahead and buy the lino? Definitely if I start without Throwers and make 70-100k before I get 110k, I'll buy a Thrower (I like Pass; it allows re-rolls on checks that are more likely to be hard than, say, Catch or Dodge, which are usually at 2+ anyway. Often, afraid to lose my turn, I'll hang on to move guys around, stand up, throw 2d blocks, etc. before throwing the ball. If I've already burned a re-roll by the time I get around to the pass action, I'm really glad to have a guy with the Pass skill).

If I'm not starting with Throwers, then here's what I'm doing:

2 Catchers (200k)
1 Blitzer (110k)
8 Linos (480k)
0 Throwers (Free)
2 RRs (100k)
1 APO (50k)
6 FF (60k)

I see the argument for 3RR instead of an APO, but not with my luck. The 6 FF still worries me; I have expensive and fragile position players and fragile and not quite cheap linemen. I have a LOT of team development to do. With Orcs, it's totally different: my Orcs ignore FF: they've got all they want to start, and have only a couple cheap purchases to make. Having AV7 Elves that all cost 60k or more, on the other hand, makes me think I'll need all the money I can get.

Ok. Here's my thinking. If I make 70k-100k in the first game, I buy a Thrower. If I make 110k+ (hey, it could happen) I buy a Blitzer. If I make 0-50k, I save it for a Thrower or Blitzer later. If I make exactly 60k, then, do I buy a Lino, or do I save up to buy a player next game? My final plan only calls for 8 linos, but I know I'll have/want to replace at least one of them over the season, so that's not an obstacle to buying another one early.

I need to go get myself another lineman if I'm considering putting a ninth on the roster. Hmmm... I have a random Wood Elf lineman in my bits bin (I think I liked his head and wanted to mount it on a pike, but decided against it later), that I could paint up in Elfchester United colors....

[lawquoter]

Catchers and Blitzers are the main players on this team. I've played them enough and had enough success with them for these tactical conclusions about playing them:

The blitzers with block and sidestep are the muscel. Get dodge. Sidestepping blodgers can hold their own defensively.

The catchers are a must, and I'd try to start with at least one on your starting roster, b/c they simply have the speed you need to score as the team starts off. the lineevles are the worst among the elves, and there's no speed. They have the agility to pass, so don't waste your money starting off with thrower.

[mattgslater]

All well and good, lawquoter, but it doesn't really answer my question:

Regardless of how I start my PEs off, they're going to start with no more than three players between Catchers and Blitzers, and I'm going to want more (like you said, positionals are key). If I make 60k in my first game, should I go ahead and buy a lineman to put a little extra meat on the field, or should I save my money for a game and get me a Blitzer or Catcher when I can afford one? To answer this question, does it matter how badly I get bruised up in game 1?

[lawquoter]

eh, well, I probably ought to read the whole thread instead of rushing..

ok, it's going to be dependent on the league set up. Bashy? Not so? Open? Set Schedule?

Let me make a couple of assumptions:

1) Bashy. Seems like most leagues are or trend towards orc/undead/khemri/chaos.

2) Open season.



Best way to go I think:
10 Line (60 x 10 = 600k)
2 Blitzers (110 x 2=220k; 820k)
2 RR (50 x 2 = 100k; 920k)
8 FF (10 x 8 = 80k; 1 Mill)

You won't be a flashy elf team with this line up, but you can run a really effective short passing game and your blitzers have the ability to be some of the best long term. Plus with MA 7, they're a little above average and can be your featured offensive ballcarriers and the equivalent of your safeties (last ditch defense--they can track down most opposing ballcarriers, have the necessary block, and that sidestep will be a nice touch in scrums along the sideline). In a bashy league, you stay away, just like other elf teams, but that's harder b/c your MA isn't as high. When you've got the ball, push it like any other elf team, but with this lineup keep your blitzers together, get one of 'em the ball and go for it. 2 or better on most dodges helps a lot and evens things up a bit. Expect to try to win a lot of 2-1 games, you aren't going to excel at stopping or scoring, and you don't have a wardancer to bail you out if you go down 3 or 4, so try to keep your blitzers on the pitch.

Assuming you nab 60k and get out of it healthy w/o and deaths or losses, I think the first thing I do is buy an apoth unless I was more willing to go into the first game with 11 (9 lineelf), putting that 60k into an apoth, and 9 ff. If your league is ultra bashy and you're going to see a steady diet of orc, dwarf & chaos, I'd switch up and go with the 11, 9 FF and apoth. Assuming we've hung on after our first game and came out if completely healthy, I'd save for a catcher. This team just doesn't have the speed early on to be threatening as the other elf teams and you need that speed to be able to pressure the other teams. If you go without an apoth, it's a calculated risk that I can survive and make at least 40k in the next game and get to that third game with my 1st catcher. Depending on how the next 2-3 games goes healthwise, I'd try to save up for the 2nd, although if the team hurt and needs a lift, I'd put off the 2nd catcher and bring in the line. At the same time, develop those blitzers to be nasty (Blodge, sidestep) and don't forget the linos. Forget you have a thrower and develop a lineelf into one and using your money elsewhere.

If you get really brutalized in the first game it's another calculated decision: play shorthanded, hope to get through, get back to health and then get the catcher or rebuild. I'd rebuild personally. I'm not going to stand a chance to keep my healthy players alive if I'm starting 8, and what if I lose a blitzer? I'd bite the bullet and plug a gap by blowing that 60k on a new lino.

This team really is a challenging elf team to play b/c they aren't as good as the other 3, and if you get hosed in your first couple of games, your new team is already re-building. Down the road, depending on some luck and good skill choices, they can really be a good team. Short term though, you're as fast as a norse team for the most part with solid blitzers but no chance of going deep in one turn. Don't expect to come away raving about P'elves after your first few games. They just don't compare to woodies/Helves or Delves.

As for the other lineups mentioned, I'd shy away from Throwers. I'd risk failing a pass with AG 4 than plopping 70k down for a thrower. Put surehands on a lineelf and he's going to do the job just about as well, especially if you stick to quick and short passes, forgetting about long passes/bombs until the team has developed significantly to have a couple of catchers or lineelves/blitzers with MA increases. You aren't going to outpass the other elf teams.

Another note: this is assuming lrb 4 I haven't thought how I'd go with the new vault rules.

[mattgslater]

Thanks! One more question: how if at all does your lineup change if you know that at least half of the teams in your league are Agility/Speed teams (Skaven, Skaven, 'Zons, maybe Wood Elves and maybe Humans)?

[mattgslater]

Also, our league is set up so that only bashy teams ever face two bashy teams consecutively (except in the playoffs). It's a set schedule of 9 or 10 games (depending on whether we can get a couple more coaches before we start).

[bigallium]

to answer your original question regarding extra lineman v save for positionals, I am currently playing pro elves and it took me till game 5 to play with 11 again players since game 1, because I went for max catchers asap (started with 3 and saved for the 4th regardless of a player dying in game 1).

If you have those catchers you don't need 11 players, 9 or 10 will do just fine.

OK so I didn't set the world alight in the 1st half of the season, but now those catchers are a pain in the proverbial for my opponents.

Just need enough linemen to stop your catchers getting hit every turn.

[lawquoter]

Thanks! One more question: how if at all does your lineup change if you know that at least half of the teams in your league are Agility/Speed teams (Skaven, Skaven, 'Zons, maybe Wood Elves and maybe Humans)?

I don't think it does. Assuming you've got a 10 team league and 5 teams are going to be orc/chaos/khemri, and you're going to face each of them at least one time, then that's half your season. You know you can't run with the skaven teams or the woodelves, and you aren't going to be as safe as 'zons dodging, assuming all teams are rookie teams. So while you are going to really need those catchers asap, you have to face the fact you're going to be outmuscled in 1 out of every 2 games, and the slower team against a couple, so I'd keep with the 10 line and 2 blitz and bring the catchers on board down the line. You have AG 4, so you can play ball. You have ST 3, so you can hit when you have to and you can take a few shots too. Your offensive delemma is to score quickly (2-3 turns) because you aren't strong enough to play power bb (cage) and milk the clock and you can't score in 1 turn, and your defensive delemma is that you don't have the pop that the bashy teams do nor do you have a wardancer to leap into cages that woodies do. So I think you play to what you do do well: play smart, quick moving, go for broke quick/short passing game (AG 4) and you try to muck up a cage before it gets set or you pick off the gutter runners before they can hurt you. Skaven w/o gutters are going to be worse off compared to you. At least you don't have to play a rookie norse club, which would have a huge advantage with all the block.

Soon as you can, get your catcher, give him leap, and let the other guy worry about your precision short passing game and your ability to burn him quickly with the catcher.