LRB 5.0 Wood Elf Starting Squad/Tactics discussion

[Warhammer]

As wood elf coach for a LRB 5.0 league that is about to start up, I decided to take a look and see if there was any discussion regarding woodies under 5.0. Since there really hasn't been any serious discussion, I thought I would get something kicked off here.

As we all know, most wood elf teams under previous rule sets followed this setup:

10 line elves - 700k
1 wardancer - 120k
8 FF - 80k
1 RR - 50k
1 apoth - 50k might be switched out for an additional RR

This worked out great under previous rule sets, but the toning down of FF leads us to the discussion of what to spend this cash on.

By reducing FF to 3, we can upgrade one line elf to a Wardancer or Treeman. The immediate reaction will probably be to get the additional WD. This is certainly a good choice, but is it what is best for the team?

We know that the reason for ultimate success of a woodie team is not the WDs, catchers, or throwers. They will score their points and rack up the SPPs. Ultimately, the success of the team is dependant upon the lineelves. With an additional WD, the team will rely too heavily on the WDs before the majority of the lineelves get their skills. Therefore, the WD is not the best acquisition.

What about a Treeman? This might be the best route to go. First, on defense you have a nice big tree in the front line. Second, with stand firm, he is clogging up the middle of the field. Add in a couple of lineelves with blodge and fend, and you have a stout frontline! This will make it very difficult for all those cagey teams from marching down the field which works to our advantage! Additionally, this gives the treeman time to get his first skill which will mean additional staying power for him. Also, this is one player that is not going to get hurt easily and will draw the attention of the opposing team from your crunchier elves.

What about a catcher or a thrower? I think this is the same problem we have with the WD. Once you start getting the positional players on a WE team, you start taking SPPs from the lineelves. So again, we are left with Treeman as the best alternative.

But, do we want to reduce our FF to 3? FF has been reduced in effectiveness, but it is still very important in calculating FAME. A +1 to FAME means +1 on the post game winnings roll, ditto for +2. Plus, with most die rolls on the kickoff table now being D3, we can stand to benefit from the additional FAME there as well. First, we must assume that each team is going to have average rolls for their 2D6 roll for fans. That gives us a value of 7. If, we have a 3FF, this gives us 10k fans for the game. An 8FF, gives us 15k. Thus, by moving to 8FF, we can almost guarantee a +1 FAME for most games. The higher FF is also beneficial if our opponent rolls low for his fans and increases our chances of +2 FAME.

Regarding skills, several of the changes and new skills benefit elves more than other teams!

Fend - Let's face it, what wood elf in good standing wants to be next to another standing opponent? Even if they run up and block you and you remain standing, you still gotta stand next to the guy, its even worse if they push you back and follow up! Best bet, use this on your front line lineelves or on wardancers (rarely) to keep them freed up.

Jump Up - As a skill this becomes a great asset to many elven teams. When used on catchers this becomes a great tool as once they are down, they can jump up, and scoot downfield without wasting the 3 MA to stand up. It is also useful for lineelves that have been knocked down and are trying to reposition themselves. What hurts this skill from making it a must have, is the +2 agility roll with block actions.

Kick-off return - This sounds like a decent skill for a passer that has most of the required skills already. The only real benefit for the skill is to get the jump on the ball to get your offense going.

Nerves of Steel - This becomes a must have for our throwers. Let's face it, our WDs pop the ball out, our throwers have the responsibility of getting the ball and then throwing it to a catcher for a TD. With this skill now in the range of an easy pick up (no doubles required), this is a must have for at least one thrower.

Safe Throw - Again, for your defensive thrower this is a gravy skill. Nice if you have a skill to burn, but otherwise do without it. Your defensive thrower is going to have to make the throws with a higher possibility of getting intercepted, so this is a big benefit to him.

Dauntless - Not as powerful as before, but this is a great skill for WDs to have when going against stronger teams.

[Mootaz]

I'd start with
10 Lineelves
1 WD
3 RR
1 Assistant Coach
1 Cheerleader
1 FF

[wesleytj]

yeah, i keep meaning to update my website with some strategies and opinions for wood elves in 5.0, but since i haven't yet played them in that environment, i don't really feel like i have enough hands-on experience with it.

plus, i still have that tourney strategy page to write too.

anyway, i would definitely say that what you've written makes a lot of sense as a really good starting point.

[Warhammer]

yeah, i keep meaning to update my website with some strategies and opinions for wood elves in 5.0, but since i haven't yet played them in that environment, i don't really feel like i have enough hands-on experience with it.

plus, i still have that tourney strategy page to write too.

anyway, i would definitely say that what you've written makes a lot of sense as a really good starting point.

Your site is the first thing I check every year to get up to date/brush up on things.

I've got the basics down, but decided to kick around a few things since the team building has changed quite a bit with the latest set of rules. Typically, my first purchase is the second WD (after the apoth), but that is normally 2-4 games into the season, whereas the extra cash immediately oddly enough makes that not so much of a no-brainer.

[Fronko]

So, we have warhammer arguing for still keeping ff high, whereas mootaz starts with a low ff, grabbing a third reroll instead.

What is it?

[wesleytj]

So, we have warhammer arguing for still keeping ff high, whereas mootaz starts with a low ff, grabbing a third reroll instead.

What is it?

like most things in this game, there is no single "right" or "wrong" answer. everyone plays the game different ways, and a good strategy for one person may not make sense for another.

i would personally drop the ff to 3 and (generally, depending on league and opponents and such) upgrade a line elf for a tree. some would call me crazy, and say that the 2nd wardancer would be a better choice.

i would say BACK to that, that the 2nd wardancer would indeed make for a better STARTING roster, but that it lacked the level of sustainability to be found in starting with a tree.

still others would suggest starting with a 3rd reroll, and i have to be honest, i'd have a much tougher time arguing this notion. i often find that 2 rerolls is just not enough, and that i often have disastrous turnovers with tr 100 teams because they've run out of rerolls.

in the end, though, i think having the tree helps you weather those turnovers which do occasionally occur, no matter HOW many rerolls you have. but then maybe i'm over-estimating the help the tree gives in these situations.

i would also argue against the temptation of starting with a catcher or thrower with your starting team, because of the importance of developing your line elves with good skills. don't buy a thrower until every line elf on your team has at least 1spp. catchers are always scooping up td's in droves too, td's that should go to line elves when possible, early in your team's development. remember, your line elves are better scorers than most teams' catchers. ag4 and ma7 is an enviable statline for offense.

[Warhammer]

So, we have warhammer arguing for still keeping ff high, whereas mootaz starts with a low ff, grabbing a third reroll instead.

What is it?

I think that the extra re-roll is too much. In all my games as a woodie coach, I can count the number of times I have had too few RRs on one hand.

The worst period of development for a wood elf team is the first few games. If you can get out of the first two or three games with a relatively intact team, you have an excellent shot of competing for a title. The question is, does the extra FF, upgrading a lineelf to a tree, or upgrading a lineelf to a WD give you the most bang for your buck?

I can certainly see the excuse for the higher FF. Many teams have very little need for extra cash. However, the elf teams do because their players are so expensive and they cannot afford all their positional players, etc. Therefore, if you can get an extra +2 to your winnings roll the first few weeks, you are sitting pretty. Suddenly, if you roll a 5 or better, you can get an additional player.

Unfortunately, my league is playing with the optional 5 FF for free rule, but we have house ruled it that FF adds to team value since it does affect the kickoff table. So I am left with a dilemma, I will have 20-30k left over no matter what I do. Should I forego the apothecary for the first game and take a tree, or should I take the apothecary?

I think I am going to take the treeman. If I lose a lineelf or two the first week, its not that big of a deal with the inducement rules. Additionally, with luck, I can get the tree on his way to a skill since he is going to take forever to skill up. Plus, he will take attention away from the other players. Also, the apothecary is not as important as he was previously. If an elf is off the pitch, the elf is off the pitch.

[fen]

Got to say, Though wesley and I lock heads over opinions a lot. I'm one to follow his advice where Woodies are concerned. He knows his leaf elves.

[Munkey]

I think that the extra re-roll is too much. In all my games as a woodie coach, I can count the number of times I have had too few RRs on one hand.

Really I find with all the Elf teams that I gobble up re-rolls fast. Especially the Wood and Pro Elves because once you are players down dodging becomes more necessary and even with AG4 a failed dodge is more likely than a failed 2D Block.

I went 2 Wardancers on my starting team as I tend to feel 1 is too much of a target. Trouble is while they are both still alive i'm 2 linemen down, and with treasury not counting to TV and Journeymen i've got no incentive to replace them until I can afford three at once and actually bring my team back up over 11 players.

[wesleytj]

Got to say, Though wesley and I lock heads over opinions a lot. I'm one to follow his advice where Woodies are concerned. He knows his leaf elves.

Very nice of you to say. Thanks!

[wesleytj]

Really I find with all the Elf teams that I gobble up re-rolls fast. Especially the Wood and Pro Elves because once you are players down dodging becomes more necessary and even with AG4 a failed dodge is more likely than a failed 2D Block.

Agree with Munkey 100% here. I had a wood elf team back in 3rd ed that had 8 rerolls, and it was not uncommon at all to use every one. Obviously, that's not really an option anymore, teams just don't get that big anymore (probably a good thing really), but the point is that you can't have too many rerolls.

I went 2 Wardancers on my starting team as I tend to feel 1 is too much of a target. Trouble is while they are both still alive i'm 2 linemen down, and with treasury not counting to TV and Journeymen i've got no incentive to replace them until I can afford three at once and actually bring my team back up over 11 players.

Not to brag, but I have never lost a game where both teams were tr100, and i played wood elves with the old standard lineup of 1wd, 10line, 8ff, 2rr. the wardancer is a target, but most teams at tr100 can't really stop him very well anyway. even if they do, the rest of your team is fully capable of scoring without him.

As for the "no incentive to replace them" I'd suggest you might be under-estimating the drawback of the loner skill. But maybe not, I don't have enough experience with the new system to know for certain. Plus, the journeymen you're shuffling through are not accumulating spps for you.

I'm not saying that the 2wd roster is not a good one. I'm just saying that I don't think you need 2wd to win early games with wood elves, and that the tree might be the better long-term option for trying to keep players alive so you don't HAVE to find out how much journeymen suck.

[z3d]

One comment to journeymans: if they gain SPP in the match and you want to keep them (because they rolled a double 6 for example), then you can buy them in the post game sequence in rookie cost, so they don't loose SPPs.

[Fronko]

After listening closely and -shock- do some thinking of my own, I think, I have come to (my very personal) conclusion.

Let us revisit:

We have more or less four options now:
a) keep the roster from LRB 4: 1 WD, 8 Line, 2 RR, 8FF
b) switch FF to upgrade a line to WD
c) switch FF to upgrade line to tree
d) switch FF for a RR

Following wesleys argumentation, I believe that a second wardancer is not the best option. Hogs SPPs and is not really needed to win early games. Also, staying with option a) is not, what I'd do. Maybe the extra cash is wirth it, maybe not. However, I feel the need to start the team differently.

So, that leaves two more option, tree or reroll. And between the two, I would go for the reroll, now. I feel, I have more difficulties by getting turned over for lack off RR than getting bashed to oblivion. So, that is my reasoning.

Fire away!

BTW: Andreas, if you read this: Yerah, that's my setup for next league.

[voyagers_uk]

question on skill combo usage which affects Wood Elves (and others)

Diving Catch and Jump Up

under LRB 5.0 is it possible to have a catcher prone and throw an accurate pass to them for them to "jump up and perform a diving catch" to snag the ball on a 3+.

I am sure it is a bit off, but thought I'd ask

sort of like the old "Jump Up/Pass Block" quandary until that got ruled out

[Munkey]

Not to brag, but I have never lost a game where both teams were tr100, and i played wood elves with the old standard lineup of 1wd, 10line, 8ff, 2rr. the wardancer is a target, but most teams at tr100 can't really stop him very well anyway. even if they do, the rest of your team is fully capable of scoring without him.

To clarify, i'm not necessarily just playing 100 rated teams, and it's not long into team devlopment before the other teams in the league become capable of dealing with them more effectively. I think winnings are lower overall at this level than in LRB4 (it feels that way anyway) so buying the second one may take longer than it used to.

All that said, I think it's very likely you are a much better WE coach than me. So far i've only managed to go 2-2-3 with them. One of those wins is Vs Gobbos and a Draw I got Vs Orcs should have been a loss if my opponent wasn't being so sporting and stalled a little longer.

As for the "no incentive to replace them" I'd suggest you might be under-estimating the drawback of the loner skill. But maybe not, I don't have enough experience with the new system to know for certain. Plus, the journeymen you're shuffling through are not accumulating spps for you.

So far loner has not bitten me in any of my games, and most have been played with 2 Journeymen. I've only got 2 RRs anyway so it's not like I often have them available for use anyway!

I know they don't get SPPs, but my theory is that they don't matter if they die on the line either, so until I get round to buying positionals or reserves I don't see much point replacing them. I think if I started to get up to 3 or 4 Journeymen per game I'd think about buying more linemen now.[/quote]