serious advise needed, ogre + chaos LRB v5

[Omalley69]

hey there...
first off, my league is:

skaven
skaven
woodelfs (#1)
dark elfs(#2)
necro (flesh golem and werewulf version)
dwarf
chaos dwarf

and
chaos
ogre
(mine)

i loose or tie ALL the time...i know they are advanced player teams, but ive won 1 out of 8+ i think so far, in this league...

chaosteam:
1 mino
3 warroirs (just brought nr 4)
- 2 with pro
beastmen
- one with kick
2 rerolls

ogre team
5 ogres
- one with a normal skill (havnt desided yet)
7 snotlings
apothecary
2 rerolls

i NEVER roll doubble when i roll for skill advance, nothing else than normal skill...take that in mind

the elf teams win all the time, they are to fast for me and blow my cages of beatmen or snotlings, so 1 td pr turn is in general what i make
with a tie or 2 (got lucky once or twise)
theyr str 3 block dudes just dont die, being chaos and ogre i only do 3 cas at max pr game, i roll lousy on TTM so havnt thrown a mate yet actually :S

i dont realy know what to do...i like the idear of thouse nasty ogres and chaos dudes, but seeing a lineelf do more damage than a chaos warriror just makes me wonna drop playing bb, cos it (please dont swear)´s big time...

i know i should have taken block on the chaos warriors, but pro helps me reroll the block dices, and my mino, belive it or not, needs teh rerolls to actually do actions istead of just raging the game away

[Urb]

You picked 2 teams that are more difficult to play than others. I'm not suprised you have troubles winning.

Chaos. I don't think the mino was a good idea. A 4th warrior would've help you out alot more. Block for sure as the first skill. Mb would go a long was after block. Beast with block/gaurd would be nice. One guy with Sure/Big hand. Maybe some Claw/MB/PO on some beasts. DP and you have a wreaking machine.

Hopefully a ogre coach can help you out but break tackle, gaurd seems good. On doubles Pro, block and dodge.

[fen]

chaosteam:
1 mino
3 warroirs (just brought nr 4)
- 2 with pro
beastmen
- one with kick
2 rerolls

Ok, well you did mention a few problems you had and things etc. But This team is in a bad way already. The first two skills for a Chaos Warrior should always be Block then Guard, and you should try to start with 3 Rerolls minimum with Chaos.

Honestly, either restart the team or look towards replacing those Pro Chaos Warriors asap because Pro is never a skill you want on Chaos Warriors.

The Kick Beastman is a good call though.

I'm assuming you're LRB5 rules as you talk about being able to use rerolls on the minotaur. So here we go, the brief Chaos Primer:

Starting line up 100K
4 Chaos Warriors
7 Beastmen
3 Rerolls
0 FF

Get an apoth asap, then work on a couple of extra beastmen, a 4th Reroll then the mino. Stop at 14 players, don't bother going above that and get to 5/6 rerolls.

Skill choices (In Order)
Chaos Warriors - Block, Guard, Mighty Blow then a mix of Stand Firm, Claw and Tackle (depending on what you struggle most against)

Beastmen
Develop 2 as Blitzers - Block, Tackle, Mighty Blow, Claw, Juggernaut You can consider Frenzy on one of these if you want to crowd push instead of straight knock 'em down.

2 Ball Handlers - Block, Sure Hands, Extra Arms, Two Heads, Guard

The Rest - Block, Guard, Stand Firm, Prehensile Tail, Mighty Blow, Tackle. 1 with Kick first then the normal pattern.

Minotaur
Claw, Juggernaut, Stand Firm, Break Tackle - Block on Doubles.

Ok now the bad news. Chaos suck early on, they really need the rerolls to ball handle and block as they have no turnover reduction skills. None whatsoever, also they're a bashing/running team, but unable to go toe to toe with Dwarf/Orc sides in a prolonged fight. And every skilled player you loose hurts really bad as you have to start unskilled.

They do get better though, once the side has Block, Guard, Stand Firm on most of it's players it's really hard for a lot of teams to push through. They can be devestating when you're settled into your groove. You just have to work through the frustration. Or switch to Orcs who are easier to use and almost as bashy.

[Omalley69]

hmm yes maybe i should start the chaos team over and take block, as the first skill and drop the mino...its just nice with the frenzy

do you buy the mino later in the league?

what do you use your mony on?

[clouds]

I play an Ogre team in my league and I've had good succes yet (except last game VS a chaos team which had block/claws/MB on most players...it was horrific for my poor ogres... I ended the game by throwing almost all my snots in the face of these guy's and it did do 1 cas )

Let's face it, Snots are useless for cage/TZ guy's. They don't create the -1 when dodging in their tackle zones and opposite coach just love to beat the s*** out of them (who wouldn't right?) TTM hasn't been that usefull for me, only 3 or 4 TD in 12 games we're made with it. Pretty much all the games ended 2 - 1 in OT (most of them won by me!) My strong point is casualty's where I've got an average of 3.9 cas per match. (One game of 7 casualty and 2 of 6! )

Here's the teams I've played against.

Dwarf X 3 (crazy rivalry )
Human
Gobbos
Nurgles X 2
Lizards
Chaos X 2
Khemry
Undead

The teams in your league are much faster, but have weaker AV (except dwarf and CD). Let the fast team do their TD fast, and than take the time left to do your TD. Force your opponent to dodge away from the Ogres, and if he doesn't, pummel him into the ground.

I was really lucky on the rolls of my team, got 4 blocks on my ogres. I also have a good combo with an ogre with Juggernaut & Break-Tackle. I have 4 Ogres with Guard, wich makes an amazing cage, even if it's a snot inside (watch those boneheads...) I have Piling On, but rarelly use it. It's good if you passed armor but failed casualty roll and the player is worth an ogre on the floor. If so, back him up with a few snots.


Hope it helps....definetely guard first skills for your ogre...5 STR is good, but with guy's to assist, it's even stronger and they won't get hit much.

[fen]

You are Living Rulebook 5 right?

Well running from the Starting roster I listed (4 Chaos Warriors, 7 Beastmen 3 Rerolls) the purchases are as follows

1. Apoth - to protect the Chaos Warriors - Don't use it on the beastmen if you think a Chaos Warrior could get injured.
2. Beastmen to get up to 13 players
3. 4th Reroll
5. Minotaur
6. 5th + 6th Rerolls
7. Sit on cash to replace Minos/Chaos Warriors

Also talk to your commissioner, see what they can do for you as you're new and frustrated with the game.
Personally I'd allow you to rebuild your team and then give the SPPs back to the Chaos Warriors + Beastmen and let you pick normal skills on them.
They may not be so generous, but it's always worth asking, especially as you're considering a do-over anyway.

[Omalley69]

but what is ur CAS count in early games?

[clouds]

First game against gobbos (made jelly) 5
Second against dwarves, worst game of my team, 0.
Third, 6 against human
Fourth, 7 on the first rematch against the dwarves (killed the Deathroller! )

and so on... Even if I got block on my ogres, the other teams we're also getting block on most of their players, so I find that the main difference is they don't hit me as much (especially with the guards around them).

I try to get a huge brawl as soon as possible into the game to be able to beat him down asap... I sometime use little snots as baits for this. Other coach seem to think that they'll get casualties as soon as they hit the snot (well....its not far from the truth...) and they forget to protect those guy's blitzing into the poor little snot

[fen]

With Chaos? Probably an average of 1-2 CAS against most opponents, sometimes none (against Orcs/Dwarfs) sometimes more (Skaven, Wood Elves, Stunties). But that's because the team has NO way to increase its chances of knocking over players or causing injuries. It's fine, early Chaos do better by playing ball with Chaos Warriors scoring TDs until they reach their first skill.

Thing is if you want the minotaur for his Mighty Blow you have to drop 2 Chaos Warriors from the side as you should not drop the rerolls below 3. And it's easier to buy 1 minotaur than 2 Chaos Warriors later on. Also, Minotaurs die, a lot, it's expensive replacing them.

My initial strategy with Chaos is to aim for 2 touchdowns a game scored either by 2 different Chaos Warriors or 2 with the same Warrior, then give them Block and move onto the next player to try and get 2 TDs with. If I'm lucky I'll get a couple of CAS along the way or some cheap passing SPPs near the end of a match.

Early on Chaos just isn't a casualty causing side (unless you're a lucky demon with the dice), you need skills to cause casualites. Only other way is to knock down as many players as you can, as often as you can and hope something sticks.

[Omalley69]

First game against gobbos (made jelly) 5
Second against dwarves, worst game of my team, 0.
Third, 6 against human
Fourth, 7 on the first rematch against the dwarves (killed the Deathroller! )

OMFG!

and thats with a 100k team?

5 ogres and so on?

[Omalley69]

fen, sounds like me alot, think its just the skills i (please dont swear)´ed up

[clouds]

100k team, 5 ogres indeed and got the 6th one after the third game.
2 rerolls and an apo

Took real care of my snots in the first few games, you dont want to lose too many and have to wait to buy that 6th ogre (wich makes a HUGE difference)

Now I have a 16 team roster with 2 AC (snots almost dead ). I throw them like crazy at my opponent's cages to try and make a hole. Rarely works, but pretty funny to see the snots fail their landing roll and die on the spot

Really, I got really lucky with that team, especially in the beginning. Every one in my league kept saying that the Ogres were too strong (they weren't complaining with my 8 ogres + gobbos team that I had in LRB 4)

[Omalley69]

what do you give ur ogres, in order...?

guard all the way, some multiple block?

[Duke Jan]

You are Living Rulebook 5 right?

Well running from the Starting roster I listed (4 Chaos Warriors, 7 Beastmen 3 Rerolls) the purchases are as follows

1. Apoth - to protect the Chaos Warriors - Don't use it on the beastmen if you think a Chaos Warrior could get injured.
2. Beastmen to get up to 13 players
3. 4th Reroll
5. Minotaur
6. 5th + 6th Rerolls
7. Sit on cash to replace Minos/Chaos Warriors

I would trade in 2 chaos warriors for 2 beastmen and get myself a 4th re-roll. A rookie chaos team can never have enough re-rolls. The 10k left can be used to get 1 FF. If you can save yourself a +2 fame against just once it's already worth it and it will never drop.

1st thing on the list would indeed be an apoth followed by chaos warriors. Then get the minotaur and if necessary get extra re-rolls but hopefully you'll have some skills by that time.

Block is nice, but don't give it as a first skill to over roughly 50% of your players. Some beastmen should get guard first and extra arms or sure hands is always welcome on 1 or 2 beasts early in the team development. On a double consider sneaky git or another agility skill. I focussed too much on ball handling with my team and am now suffering during game 5-8 so far since only bashing teams are matched up with my team based on their TV. Not complaining, but elves develop their TV slowly so depending on how your match ups are arranged you may shift your team more towards ball handling or bashing.

[fen]

On a double consider sneaky git or another agility skill..

Other, defintately other. Chaos has never been a team well designed for fouling (with 60K base linemen) and sneaky git is complete tosh for fouling compared to Dirty Player. So as DP isn't worth recommending, SG is even more marginal. I'm not wanting to use a 90K or 110K player for fouling when I can build a Block, Claw, Mighty Blow, Piling On, Tackle player with normal rolls.

Basically doubles imo come down to Dodge, Side Step or Diving Tackle. But you can avoid getting DT by stacking a lot of prehensile tail and Stand Firm is almost as good as Side Step, not sure if Side Step is a whole 10K better than SF...

I've got no argument with your switch of 2 CWs for that extra reroll. Except that it costs 140K for a Reroll and 200K for those Chaos Warriors. So if I did do it that way I'd bank the spare 10K to speed up the process as imo +1 has a very marginal ability to get you the +1 FAME, let alone +2.