LRB5 and fouling (or lack of it)

[King-Nerd]

I was trying to work out an effective strategy for fouling, having played way more LRB 4 via FUMBBL than LRB 5.

Although, I would agree that fouling was over used in LRB 4, it just seems plain ineffective in LRB 5.

The odds vs AV7 are - Sent Off 23.62% v Cas 6.95%

I then thought about creating the worst possible fouling situation, a Dirty Player with Sneaky Git and 6 (SIX) assists against AV7. This makes it an automatic armour break, rending Sneaky Git useless. Dirty player allows a new Cas rate of 27.78% but the Sent Off chance has now risen to 33.33%.

So unless you have the Ref or Bribes, stay well clear of fouling, or am I completely wrong?

[DoubleSkulls]

You are assuming that the fouler and the victim are of equal value. Obviously I'll quite happily trade a couple of goblins to get rid of a War Dancer.

[Pipey]

Fouling can no longer be effectively used to thin the enemy ranks to gain a numerical advantage as it used to be. The odds are no longer in the fouler's favour, not just because of the change in the foul mechanic but also due to the new DP rules.

As DS says, fouls are now best used surgically to take out low AV positionals such as WDs, GRs , Amazon Blitzers etc.

Or alternatively, I find fouling useful in important tactical situations toward the end of the game when even a stun is of significance and the consequences of losing a player for the rest of the match are reduced.

[ttias]

Sneaky git is useful i think. You still have to roll and get sent of on doubles even if you will make the roll automaticly.

And, I do feel that a knock out, and sometimes even a stunned might be worth it. In the right situation of course.

[Xeterog]

I
Although, I would agree that fouling was over used in LRB 4, it just seems plain ineffective in LRB 5.

The odds vs AV7 are - Sent Off 23.62% v Cas 6.95%

You might want to re-run your numbers taking a KO or better instead of just Casualties. Getting the player off the pitch, possibly for more than one drive, can be almost as important as removing them from the game entirely. Also, relative value of the players involved comes into play--losing a Linerat or a Goblin or a Skeleton to take out a War Dancer or some 5-skilled player is well worth the risk in a lot of instances.

What LRB5 has done to fouling, IMO, is to bring it under control a bit--it is no longer a 'must do a foul every turn', but more of a surgical strike--much more tactical in nature.

Sneaky git is usuful for fouling without any assists--you are guaranteed to not get sent off unless you stun your opponent (or worse).

[mattgslater]

I like all of the individual changes that have been made to fouling for 5th, but I don't like the result. I do have a solution.

Create a new SPP category: the dirty casualty (DC). This is for casualties from fouls and secret weapons; each is worth one SPP, as it implies that the player run a risk (or certainty) of ejections, even if it's not really considered honorable. Besides, the fans love it, and that's a great part of what makes a star player!

This way, there is a bit of a side-temptation to foul just to get a numerical advantage (if you need a 5 to break armor, you've got a 5-4 advantage in terms of taking an opponent off the pitch, and if you sweeten the pot with a lure of an SPP it gets tempting), but it's not really worth it in the match unless you're fouling a key positional. It'll lead to a few more casualties over a season (maybe a quarter of a casualty per game, or half for coaches who foul a lot?), which will be good for novice coaches with grindy teams (which is where novices should start anyway).

As a side bonus, it will slightly benefit teams that suffer the worst of the current fouling rules, which are often the hardest teams to play anyway (Necromantic teams in particular come to mind) by making fouls-of-opportunity tempting even if they're ineffective in terms of the match, giving a possibility that some easy fouls will be made on cheap players (Zombies) at the expense of harder fouls on vulnerable or expensive positionals (Ghouls, Werewolves).

With one SPP for a Dirty Casualty, fouling will become a bit more common, but not really any more effective. More dilemmas will ensue; it won't often be so cut-and-dried as to whether or not to foul. Good coaches will have more broadly-differing opinions on when to foul which opponent, deepening the strategy level (at least in a league format), which is really what makes this game great.

WDYT?

[Father911]

SPP for fouling is one of the reasons it carried such bad conotations in 3rd edition. I gain something by fouling but there are zero long term negatives. You on the other hand will suffer long term negatives but gain nothing.

Unless there is a long term risk tied to performing a foul then SPP are a no-no.

[Little_Rat]

I don´t think it´s the wrong way to change the fouling. It was a hell of problem for any low av-team (like the one´s I play most of the time...) but you can use it even now. Oh... and by the way, the record for benched players due fowling is for me 12 players, leading to 5 KO´s, 4 Major Injuries (2 Niggling, 1 -1 Strength) and 2 Kills. It was under LRB 3 and it was hellofamatch

[Bardbarian]

The odds vs AV7 are - Sent Off 23.62% v Cas 6.95%

--->I get SO 21.9% v CAS 6.9%, with 17.4% of a KO or better.

I then thought about creating the worst possible fouling situation, a Dirty Player with Sneaky Git and 6 (SIX) assists against AV7. This makes it an automatic armour break, rending Sneaky Git useless. Dirty player allows a new Cas rate of 27.78% but the Sent Off chance has now risen to 33.33%.

So unless you have the Ref or Bribes, stay well clear of fouling, or am I completely wrong?

--->The SO is only 30.6%, which is awfully close to that 27.8% CAS chance, and 58.3% of a KO or better (barring Thick Skull.) (I would guess you're double-counting cases where doubles are thrown on both armor and injury.)

--->As soon as you need to roll a 7+ for the armor, your chance of being thrown out is less that the chance of getting a KO or better. If you start thinking on the KO+ lines (or even better, do as others have suggested and factor in the prices of fouler vs foulee,) you will end up seeing a better cost/benefit ratio for fouling.

Not that I'm recommending putting the boot in, of course, but if you happen to slip while "helping up" that Wardancer, things happen.

--->Shane

[fen]

This makes it an automatic armour break, rending Sneaky Git useless.

Sneaky Git is useless anyway.

[mattgslater]

That's not a problem. If a player is caught fouling, the victim's coach rolls 2d6. Add +1 if the foul result is a casualty.

2-4: Overruled. The fouling player is given a warning, but allowed to remain on the field, to the boos and catcalls of the opponent's fans. The fouling team's turn ends.
5-9: Ejected. The fouling player is ejected as normal.
10-12: Suspended. The fouling player is ejected as normal, and must miss the next game as well.

Or, instead of getting caught on doubles, the victim's coach rolls 2d6 after the foul. On a 2-8, the fouler isn't caught. On a 9-10, the fouler is caught and ejected. On an 11-12, the fouler is caught, ejected, and suspended for the next match.

[PianoDan]

That's not a problem. If a player is caught fouling, the victim's coach rolls 2d6. Add +1 if the foul result is a casualty.

2-4: Overruled. The fouling player is given a warning, but allowed to remain on the field, to the boos and catcalls of the opponent's fans. The fouling team's turn ends.
5-9: Ejected. The fouling player is ejected as normal.
10-12: Suspended. The fouling player is ejected as normal, and must miss the next game as well.

Or, instead of getting caught on doubles, the victim's coach rolls 2d6 after the foul. On a 2-8, the fouler isn't caught. On a 9-10, the fouler is caught and ejected. On an 11-12, the fouler is caught, ejected, and suspended for the next match.

I like that idea

[King-Nerd]

I like the idea that being sent off could make you miss future games due to suspension. Maybe in LRB6 that could be use as the dissuader rather than making fouls ineffective.

[GalakStarscraper]

I like the idea that being sent off could make you miss future games due to suspension. Maybe in LRB6 that could be use as the dissuader rather than making fouls ineffective.

It in the rules for LRB 5.0 for a long time (if you check the version history of the development you can see them). However they were removed for one very large reasons ... we had made the benefits of fouling greater because of this downside. However in playtesting ... coaches just induced mercenaries, stars or used journeymen to do most of the fouling as these players being sent off to miss future games didn't matter.

Galak

[King-Nerd]

I like the idea that being sent off could make you miss future games due to suspension. Maybe in LRB6 that could be use as the dissuader rather than making fouls ineffective.

It in the rules for LRB 5.0 for a long time (if you check the version history of the development you can see them). However they were removed for one very large reasons ... we had made the benefits of fouling greater because of this downside. However in playtesting ... coaches just induced mercenaries, stars or used journeymen to do most of the fouling as these players being sent off to miss future games didn't matter.

Always the path of most bangs for your buck, the story of the gaming world. Give 'em an inch and they take a mile. You could ban loners and stars from fouling I guess.