Odd CW question - new to LRB 5

BadMrMojo · Post by **BadMrMojo** » Thu Oct 25, 2007 4:53 am

I've recently picked up BB again, after many years on FUMBBL and a few years off. My first few tabletop games have been a blast and I'm enjoying playing with (and getting thumped by) Mo and the crew over at BABBL.

I am, however, still pretty new to LRB 5 and I'm quickly coming up on some important questions. I'm playing chaos in a pretty diverse (Skaven , WEs, HEs, along with Necros, Chaos, CDs and Orcs, off the top of my head) short-term (8 or 9 games) league and I'm not entirely sure of my original plan of block on pretty much everyone. I've already gotten my first skill rolls (a +AG beastman and a kick beastman, which I really need in order to have any idea where to place the ball).

My beastmen are pretty much planned. Mostly block and then guard from here on out, but alternating the usual with a few specialist players (a wrestle/strip ball, a dp, a block/claw and a tackle/block, for starters... maybe the tackler first, in case of elves/skaven).

Whatever comes up, I'm trying to think short-term. After FUMBBL, it's easy to imagine each and every player with 7 skills, but we're only talking 8 or 9 games, here.

More to the point, I'm thinking about the CWs. I tend to play Chaos as a Beastman team. I readily admit that I underutilize my CWs by using them like Flesh Golems or BOBs, but it works for me. I generally consider my linos to be my stars and my CWs are there to look scary and draw attention to themselves.

As such, I'm actually considering alternating between Tentacles and Guard for the first skills and waiting for block on any possible second rolls. Any doubles would probably go to sidestep or dodge, for the annoyance factor.

Am I crazy? Is there something else I'm missing in LRB 5 other than block that's actually worthwhile?

Wrestle looks good, for example, but only on offense and to take down ballcarriers or to set up an important foul (which requires movement to get to the right player, hence the wrestle/strip ball beastman). On defense and on a strength 4 player I'd rather have block for a shot at taking someone down and getting an armor roll. Double that for Juggernaut on the slowest position on the team and the only one without horns. I just don't see any appeal over block.

Fend would be great on a few beastmen destined for the front line, but I set up my 4 CWs across the second line to provide tough front to blitz and I'd usually rather they were in TZs, making life difficult for the opponent's strength 3 players. Grab, like wrestle, looks situationally fantastic, but only on the offense, after the requisite Block and a few other skills which I don't have time to acquire.

I want solid defensive players who'll free up my real stars. Typically, my CWs don't actually throw all that many blocks. They just tend to get in the way and try to tie up opposing players, leaving my beastmen free to blitz and maneuver.

So it would be: Tentacles or Guard, then block, then - if they get around to a third skill while playing second-class citizen - the remaining Guard or Tentacles skill.

Anyone tried anything similar or otherwise and have much experience to say if it's a crap idea?

Jural · Post by **Jural** » Thu Oct 25, 2007 6:43 am

I would consider Prehensile Tail as well. And doubles rolls should be side step if you have PT or tentacles... makes for a nasty combo

TuernRedvenom · Post by **TuernRedvenom** » Thu Oct 25, 2007 7:58 am

I think you're missing out on a few things. For one you will really need those Chaos Warriors as support player: this means Block and Guard. Block is needed to keep them on their feet and prevent your opponents from half die pushing them.
But I think you are really missing out is on the destructive side. Build 2 beastmen like this: Mighty Blow, Claw, Piling On. The first two skills alone build a great damage dealer. Break any armour on 7+! It gets real ugly when Piling On is added (reroll injury rolls!). But since this is rather a glass sword you need those chaos warriors with skills to protect them.
The Mino is also great once you have a solid base around it for guard assists and protection: first skill Claw, second Tentacles: yummy!

I tend to build chaos as a damage dealing team, so forget about skills like strip ball and wrestleYou can build them as a ball-playing team but they need so many skills for that they'll almost always be at a disadvantage.

stormmaster1 · Post by **stormmaster1** » Thu Oct 25, 2007 8:15 am

guard is the best skill for any supporting high ST player. Any bashy side that loads on this won't go far wrong. It may be a little boring and dwarfish though. chaos need some cas-causing skills, as they get most out of the faster blitzing game when there are less players on pitch.

the problem is that loading up on block (great for keeping players upright and reducing turnovers on blocks) on most players won't give much room for other skills in 8-9 games. Getting claw and mighty blow early might help skill a few players up quicker.

Adding a few skills to irritate the opposition like tentacles and PT is good fun, but they don't do anything against most bashy sides.

Richy · Post by **Richy** » Thu Oct 25, 2007 8:41 am

Over 8-9 games you are unlikely to get more than two or three players with two skills on a chaos team (assuming your opponents are of a reasonable standard).

I would go with block on the chaos warriors as the first skill over guard. It makes them more reliable and more likely to skill up again. However, if you're not using them for ball handling, I wouldn't count on getting any warriors to two skills over 8-9 games.

Tentacles can be handy on the minotaur (after mighty blow), but it's not a great choice for a chaos warrior. Under lrb5 a str. 3 player has a greater than 50% chance of escaping the tentacles - given that it's only useful in certain situations anyway, my view is that there are better choices.

Over 8-9 games I would go for a lot of block, some guard, one tackle beastman and one mightyblow claw beastman. If you've managed to get all that in place before the final game, you can start getting creative!

TuernRedvenom · Post by **TuernRedvenom** » Thu Oct 25, 2007 8:53 am

I think after 8 games with my chaos I have had 2 chaos warriors with 1 skill, 2 chaos warriors with 2 skills, mino with 1 skill (and on the verge of skilling up again), 2 beastmen with 2 skills (those that took MB first) and 2 beastmen with 1 skill. So it can be done. I did score with the CW's and focused on blocking as much as possible with the mino and 2 MB beastmen.
Unfortunately the team has also been cursed by nuffle and suffers about as many deaths as ko's (4 in my last game, 2 in the game before that,...) so my 2 skill beastmen are dead. One of them was even sitting at 27 spp's...

Once you have claw and mighty blow you're raking in the spp's!

fen · Post by **fen** » Thu Oct 25, 2007 9:19 am

TuernRedvenom wrote:Unfortunately the team has also been cursed by nuffle and suffers about as many deaths as ko's (4 in my last game, 2 in the game before that,...) so my 2 skill beastmen are dead. One of them was even sitting at 27 spp's...

That's pretty standard for LRB5 Chaos teams tbh. The beastmen die in donkey's droves.

As for the original query. Block and Guard is great for supporting role chaos warriors. Tentacles sucks on ST4.

The best skills I've used on chaos warriors are:
Block, Guard, Claw, Mighty Blow, Stand Firm, Prehensile Tail, Tackle, Grab and Dodge is the only doubles I've bothered with.

stormmaster1 · Post by **stormmaster1** » Thu Oct 25, 2007 9:21 am

and get a tackle beastman. Without tackle or wrestle on the side you could suffer to elves and skaven when you can't knock any key players over.

TuernRedvenom · Post by **TuernRedvenom** » Thu Oct 25, 2007 9:30 am

fen wrote:
TuernRedvenom wrote:Unfortunately the team has also been cursed by nuffle and suffers about as many deaths as ko's (4 in my last game, 2 in the game before that,...) so my 2 skill beastmen are dead. One of them was even sitting at 27 spp's...
That's pretty standard for LRB5 Chaos teams tbh. The beastmen die in donkey's droves.

Getting more Deaths against you then Badly Hurts isn't really standard.

But it's true that beastmen are fragile, which is why you need to go the bashy route and try to get your opponent in the blocking area on the defensive asap in every game (much like Norse). Claw/MB gives you the armour breaks (even if it's just a stun) to be able to do that. Guard and Block on the CW's gives you a chance at keeping your Claw/MB players efficient.

fen · Post by **fen** » Thu Oct 25, 2007 10:19 am

I dunno, you're the 5th Chaos player I've seen who's noted how often Chaos teams lose beastmen.

I spent over 500K on replacing beastmen last time I played chaos. Before I gave up and went with the far more resistent Nurgle team.

Richy · Post by **Richy** » Thu Oct 25, 2007 10:45 am

TuernRedvenom wrote:I think after 8 games with my chaos I have had 2 chaos warriors with 1 skill, 2 chaos warriors with 2 skills, mino with 1 skill (and on the verge of skilling up again), 2 beastmen with 2 skills (those that took MB first) and 2 beastmen with 1 skill. So it can be done. I did score with the CW's and focused on blocking as much as possible with the mino and 2 MB beastmen.

Getting to the second skill with CWs after 8 games is possible if you use them to score, but if you don't use them for ball handling then they progress like black orcs/flesh gollums - meaning two skills is unlikely over 8-9 games.

BadMrMojo · Post by **BadMrMojo** » Thu Oct 25, 2007 5:07 pm

Richy wrote:...Over 8-9 games I would go for a lot of block, some guard, one tackle beastman and one mightyblow claw beastman. If you've managed to get all that in place before the final game, you can start getting creative!

Yeah, you're probably right. No need to get carried away with things immediately. The sudden possibility of mutations on singles was just too much temptation and I started running a bit wild with it and wound up thinking of support CWs instead of killers. I'm fluctuating between planning out 6 skills on every player on the team and drastically underestimating the amount of SPPs I'll wrack up. We'll just see how it comes out in the end.

One other factor that I forgot to mention is the other chaos team. Having played the same guy's minor league chaos, it's abundantly clear that he's going to be after all all-out destroyer team. His 7s team has at least 3 or 4 guys with Claw for their first skill, I think.

Seeing as how I'm a bit contrary by nature, I was looking for something a bit different just to see how much the two teams (we both started with the exact same roster, actually) diverge in the end. As such, I'm going for a more dwarf- or orc-like approach with a few less skills but a bit more speed. A couple of "armor penetration specialists" will certainly be enlisted, however.

Also, as a side note, I've already faced the skaven (lost on a crazy play) and HEs (beat them pretty solidly on lucky armor rolls), so I don't have a whole lot of dodging in my near future. I may come around to them again later in the season but I do have a largely bashy line up to face off against.

fen · Post by **fen** » Thu Oct 25, 2007 5:33 pm

BadMrMojo wrote:One other factor that I forgot to mention is the other chaos team. Having played the same guy's minor league chaos, it's abundantly clear that he's going to be after all all-out destroyer team. His 7s team has at least 3 or 4 guys with Claw for their first skill, I think.

tbh that's a mistake. If you want a killer team from the start Mighty Blow is the skill you choose ahead of claw. Honestly I'd go Block, Mighty Blow, Claw every time I'm building a killer Chaos player. That order has always resulted in them topping the league for Casualties.

Snew · Post by **Snew** » Thu Oct 25, 2007 6:32 pm

I agree. Block first. MB second. Score with them CWs. Kill with them CWs. Block ST4 AG3 pisses the opponent off when they have to try and pry the ball away. when they have to try and stop him to prevent him from getting MB they're just happy they've already played your team this season.

I've always neglected the Beastmen electing to allow them to develop themselves. They always do and end up with skills-a-plenty but they always end up supporting the CWs on my teams, not the other way around.

Joemanji · Post by **Joemanji** » Thu Oct 25, 2007 7:02 pm

fen wrote:
BadMrMojo wrote:One other factor that I forgot to mention is the other chaos team. Having played the same guy's minor league chaos, it's abundantly clear that he's going to be after all all-out destroyer team. His 7s team has at least 3 or 4 guys with Claw for their first skill, I think.
tbh that's a mistake. If you want a killer team from the start Mighty Blow is the skill you choose ahead of claw. Honestly I'd go Block, Mighty Blow, Claw every time I'm building a killer Chaos player. That order has always resulted in them topping the league for Casualties.

I might even take Piling On before Claw. MB + PO is the real killer in LRB5, Claw is just situationall awesome against certain teams, and allows Chaos to bash even against Dwarfs and Orcs. Of course you have to go prone to use it, so Claw is better for other players. But for a first killer PO beats Claw hands down.