Zombies vs Golems on a Necromantic team

[ngoike]

I've run a couple Necromantic teams under LRB5, and also the proposed rules changes. As I've learned how to play this team again, I now find myself not taking flesh golems. Instead I use zombies, they do the job and keep my team value low, obviously helping with inducements.

This is my current preferred starting roster:

2 Werewolves 240,000
2 Wights 180,000
1 Ghouls 70,000
7 Zombies 280,000
3 rerolls 210,000

20,000 left over for FF, AC, or CL


Zombies cost 60-70k less then flesh golems. They are just as mobile and agile as flesh golems, in that neither piece is much of either. But they have Str 3, AV 8 and Regen, which makes them solid linemen, that you don't have to care about losing. Plus they are cheap enough that you can start with 12 players, and 3 rerolls.

Flesh golems add STR and AV, and some skills. The added STR is nice, but I don't find that I miss it much. Bashing teams ignore it for the most part. Orcs have more black orcs, Lizards have more saurus and mummies bash better. Against finesse teams, flesh golems have never dominated much. They are still very slow and there are only 2 of them, so the opposing team can simply avoid them as much as possible. Similar to how teams play against Undead, except that mummies do more damage when they blitz because they have STR 5 and mighty blow. On Necro I'd rather use my blitz action on wights or werewolves.

As for the skills they add, thick skull and the extra point of AV do make them a very sturdy player. But since I can afford 2 zombies for much less than 1 flesh golem, I don't find I need the added reliability. Once I have the other 6 positionals, I can fill up on cheap zombies, this keeps 11 men on the field and my TV low. Stand firm is an OK skill, less useful in LRB5 since you can't use it to try to make the golems more mobile, now they are just as difficult to move out of a tackle zone as zombies. The biggest advantage the golems have, is access to S skills. Guard and might blow are both nice additions to your line, but golems take so long to develop and you rarely start with 2 of them. With all zombies you see more doubles, allowing you to hopefully get guard on a couple of them. In my experience, I'd take a zombie with guard over an unskilled golem any day, and the zombie adds only half the TV!

What it's all come down to is that golems don't add enough for their cost. They don't help the team play better in the matches where I think they need the most help ( Elves ), and they don't help the team stand up to bashing teams any better than a line of zombies.

I'm curious what other coaches have found under LRB5. Are golems an integral part of your game plan with Necromantic?

[DamianTheLost]

I use them on my team. Both have block and one has guard now (the other close to skill up) but this is after 18 matches. I find they have a psycological use, since most coaches seem afraid of them. However it takes a long time to develop the team enough to really use their capabilities and as you can see they take forever to skill up. Now with block, guard they are very good though. But you are quite right. At the present cost they aren't worth 110k. Maybe they need a boost or the team in general, but Stand Firm is what makes them better than zombies because they can tie up a lot of playes (but not block so much against them).

[ClayInfinity]

I dont have my LRB5 in front of me, but do they still get Stand Firm as standard?

But Stand Firm has been toned down alot in LRB5 and hence its value isnt needed.

I have never played Necro... and everyone seems to complain about the costs of Zombies going up, but I think you're landed on a very solid theory in terms of the zombies vs the fleshies...

Your point to me (as a non-Necro coach) seems to make sense, but for the "fluff" of the team, arent the Fleshies a key fluff reason for the whole team in the first place?

Without Fleshies, Necro become Undead with werewolves and no mummies...

Maybe the Fleshie price should be dropped?

[DamianTheLost]

... or maybe boosted a bit

No Stand firm is still standard, and it has been nerved, but it is still very good though IMO. However I miss the freeroaming flehies from LRB 4

[Pakulkan]

For me, the ponit with Flesh Golems is Stand Firm.

This skill allow you to perform your attack very close to the sideline, without problems. Your opponent should defense near the line too, and then, your wolves become so much better This position increases the value of your ST 4 players too, because is much difficult to assist the blocks.

For me, is a very important tactic because, remember! your wolves have Frenzy. Very Good offensive conbination.

[GalakStarscraper]

Maybe the Fleshie price should be dropped?

They were ... see Rules Review 2007.

Galak

[PubBowler]

I wouldn't take Flesh Golums in a short league or most tournies. The exception ebing where there are lots of normal skills (thus two more Guard).
Not going to get the skills they need to overcome their high cost otherwise.

In long leagues I would say 50/50.

Zombies are very cost effective and that is what counts in LRB5.

[Buggrit]

I've got 2 fleshies on my Necro team (they've currently played 13 games) one of them skilled up really quickly, with Block, guard and mighty blow whilst the other one has just Block at the moment. I haven't used them on the sidelines much, but I appreciate how Stand Firm can present them as a target for pushing off pitch which is then denied (unless the other player is blitzing with juggernaught!) which is cool. I generally sit my fleshies on the LOS and let them get at bashing, with 14 CAS's between them in 13 games it's a tactic that's been working well for me.

[Darkson]

Even after the RR, zombies over golems every time.


2 zombies at 80k is worth more than 2 golems at 220k (pre-review)/200k (post review).

[ngoike]

I'm surprised at the amount of coaches not using golems, I didn't realize it had become a more popular tactic.

For the coaches who've been running their teams this way, what would it take for you to consider golems on your starting roster?

Tournament rosters are interesting as well. People have always seemed to purchase wolves before golems, but now it seems wights are a must have before golems as well. What would have to change for people to want to spend their gold on 2 golems for a starting roster?

[PubBowler]

Old style stand firm seemed to make them popular...

But without traits: I quite liked the mutation access idea which appeared a little while ago.
But still only in a league.

In a 110TV tournie you might see them as Guard carriers.

[ngoike]

I tend to think necromantic won't be returning as a popular tournament team. Don't get me wrong, it will still see play, just in much smaller numbers.

Good or bad, the changes to the team make it require more development. And for lack of a better term, it suffers in "consistency" with a starting roster, at least compared to the old team. I think the result is less tournament play.

Any alterations to Golems, wouldn't seem to do much, since the team can't afford all it's positionals anyway.

[Darkson]

For the coaches who've been running their teams this way, what would it take for you to consider golems on your starting roster?

Decent starting skills. The old Stand Firm was great, and meant you actually had a piece you could risk moving. The new SF does nothing but bump the cost.

[ngoike]

Decent starting skills. The old Stand Firm was great, and meant you actually had a piece you could risk moving. The new SF does nothing but bump the cost.

Yeah I think the Flesh Golem is currently proving the point that everyone isn't willing to pay for certain skills on a starting player. It's fine if it's a 1st pick skill, like dodge, block or mighty blow. But when it's middle pick or worse skills like stand firm and thick skull it's costing you team value by making them more expensive without helping you win. I think that's why we're seeing the reduction in their cost. The problem is that you can only reduce them so far.

I actually think there are 3 options for them.

1) change the skills but put them back at a higher cost. They need better starting skills, so remove something they have now ( like thick skull ), and add a top tier skill like mighty blow or guard.

2) Remove all skills but regeneration, and make them cheaper. If people don't want to pay for the skills, than why not remove them and make the piece cost 80K or so?

3) Remake them completely. If zombies can fill the roll of linemen on the team, then make Flesh Golems something like a thrower or runner or something else.

Option 1 is easiest, and the most simple to attempt. I just have a hard time picking the skill for them. Mighty blow makes them mini-mummies so doesn't help distinguish them from Undead really. Guard is an interesting option, I don't think it's overpowered on them since they can only have 2 and the team can't afford to start with all it's positionals and rerolls. Break Tackle would make them mobile, but at the risk of a turn over, which still seems weaker to me than the old stand firm.

Option 2 has the benefit of being easier to house rule, since it stops any over powered arguements so long as you price them right. I like 80k personally, Orc players complain a bit cuz it's a BOB at the same price with Regen, but Necro only gets 2 of them.

[Craigtw]

Orc players complain a bit cuz it's a BOB at the same price with Regen, but Necro only gets 2 of them.

But then you also have to figure that the orcs have access to an apothecary.