Talk Fantasy Football

I'm posting this as a form of "research" for a future installment of Hold the Line, my column in TriplePow! Magazine. If you participate on this thread and I want to quote you in the article, I'll pm you about it.

Here's the question: Under what circumstances do you, as a Blood Bowl coach, stack the defensive line? When, if ever, do you put more than three guys on the line of scrimmage as the kicking team? For what reason? If you do, what team race do you play? Do you only use a stacked line against a specific opponent? How do you build a stacked line, in terms of player development?

I've got my own ideas, mostly involving Orcs, Chaos, Khemri, Nurgle, CDs and such, from what I've used and what I've seen others use (you'll read all about the "Orklahoma" 5-2 and permutations of the 4-3 for a Chaos Dwarf team at different stages of development). I've never seen a low-AV or high-AG team use a stacked D-line: usually, it's either a three-man cluster or a two-gap for teams that don't have both ST and AV going their way. If I do use anything you say about a bashy team, it'll probably just be a reader quote in support of my existing ideas. I'd love to hear a perspective on stacking the line with a different kind of team, though.

So, how do you stack the line, or is putting one's neck out for losers only?

On defence? Almost never. Very rarely on dead turns where I have a strength advantage and there is no risk of a 1 turner.

You need an overwhelming strength advantage against a slower opponent to make it worth while. It helps if they've got little block and no rererolls too.

Can't think of the last time I did it.

Oh yeah, 2 Stand Firm Trolls and two fanatics against a Dwarf team.
Made a mess of that cage.
Still lost but it was funny. Maybe don't mention that in the article.

Oh and sometimes it's a good idea on Perfect Defense.

Almost never. I'm often tempted on a Perfect D, but experience has taught me it is too much of risk - your opponent can still knock most of your LoS players down, tie up the rest and run the ball unopposed. Probably only when your opponent has so few men getting the ball will be a problem (3-5) and so you want to stop them achieving anything on the LoS. The thing is, if you have a strong team three strong players on the LoS with Guard is 100% effective at the task in hand (i.e. keeping your line on its feet). If you commit more its either overkill or your opponent can deal with it anyway. But stacking the line is unlikely to be as advantageous as holding back as many players as possible and then commiting them in your own turn.

One marginal use would be just to get your players closer to the endzone if you desparately need a quick TD (and are hoping for a Blitz). It can pressure your opponent to go backwards if you get lucky.

Perfect Defence with a somewhat developed Orc team (4x BOB + Troll) or Dwarf team (Guard, Guard, Guard, ...) and maybe Undead or Khemri against a low strength team (no ST4) with no/few Mighty Blow and Guard players. Like High/Wood/Dark/Pro Elves, Skaven, Amazons, Humans, Bretonnians, Slann. Best when they have only 10 players or less. Later on, only against those Elf teams, because the other ones will have many Guard players themselves.

As you can see, my requirements for this tactic are very strict, so I don't use if very often. Especially when playing in a long-term league, you'll generally try avoid armour rolls against you. On a resurrection tournament, I would do it more frequently (again, only with PD), but I'm not playing Orcs or Dwarves there.

That's what I thought, as well. Still, if anyone has something that works out there...

I have one 5-2 defense that I run with developed Orcs against Agility teams that don't have a Big Guy, but I don't even try it until I have two BOBs with SF, two Blitzers with Guard, and a Troll with Guard: then it lets your Blitzers get a jump off the line, and forces your opponent into disadvantageous/extraneous die rolls. It's not my default, but its change-up value really throws coaches off, and it's a great way to pick up opportunity casualties.

I knew a Chaos coach once who got good mileage out of a 4-3 line once the opponent got down in numbers, especially early in the season when the more traditional Chaos game struggles. He only really got to use it when winning, but a couple CWs with Guard and a battered opposition... those Beastmen he used as defensive tackles could add a fair amount of reliability to a run-up-the-score attempt by virtue of just having one less GFI when the team was sure not to have any RR left. Otherwise, I'm used to thinking of a stacked line as a rookie mistake or a Perfect Defense option.

Anybody got anything to prove us all wrong?

Only done it with my Halfling team on defense with LRB 5.0.

Morg, Deeproot, and 2 roster Treemen on the LOS while playing against Chaos Pact to neutralize the LOS strength they could put into play as they had all 3 Big Guys.

Galak

I have never done it, and but for the situation Tom described above, I cannot think of a reason to do it and would consider it a set up mistake tantamount to not fielding 11 guys.

In a recent match with my lizardmen against a wood elf team with 9 players and 2 journeymen I used this setup on defense: I won 3-1. But I probably wouldn't have done it this way if he'd had any players with ST4+, Dauntless or Guard. With Guard on the two Sauruses closest to the Krox this setup becomes a lot more effective though.

Details on the match, and both teams can be seen here:
http://bloodbowl.krokodille.com/match.php?match_id=748

I've never done it, but I can think of a situation where I'd try it a few times, just to see: a developed Slann team with 2 (or more) Block/Wrestle + Guard + Side Step blitzers. I'd think about something along these lines: ?? probably needs a lineman, but that leaves the wide zones light, so I'd do without.

I haven't thought about a complementary wide zone setup. But that front line, with the guard/SS/block (or wrestle) blitzers, should hold very well, and gives a good chance for a favourable leap on my turn.

This set up might relieve a little of the wide zone pressure, at the expense of a weaker centre, but sometimes you want to force/tempt the attacking team down the centre: I wouldn't try this one myself, but I'd applaud anyone who did and got a good result out of it.

Thanks, Tenwit.

From what you guys are saying, which pretty much jives with what I've seen, I'm coming to the opinion that a stacked line is good only if either you roll a Perfect Defense, or if all (save perhaps one) of the following are true.

1) Your opponent lacks the speed/TZs to get off your line and past a pair of your shallow safeties, usu. because of low numbers or a lack of skills/TRRs.
2) Your opponent lacks the bash to put your line down without an inordinate commitment, usu. either because of low numbers or overwhelming +ST/Guard on your side.
3) You have good armor on key line-players, possibly supplemented by up to two cheap fill-ins even if they don't have good armor.
4) You have a bunch of Stand Firm (and probably Guard, but that's covered under #2).
5) You have time for a defensive score but you need a fast jump.

Translation: if you're way bashier than the other guy, it can be a good idea to stack the line late in the match when the casualty picture is going your way and your opponent is out of TRRs. That forces them to leave bodies in your TZ until end of turn, and then to make chancy dodges or bad-odds blocks that tie up too many players, adding to your potential cas count and improving your odds of a fast defensive TD. However, if your opponent has the manpower to get past you and tie your safeties down, your overcommital to the line can come back and bite you.

Hmmm... That doesn't really merit a column, does it? Maybe it does... If I can leave newbies with the impression that a three-man line is a default for a reason and leave veterans with an understanding of how to change it up for fun and profit -- or am I barking up the wrong tree? Would I be better putting that one off for a bit until I've done one on SF/SS/Fend games? Heh heh... I can call it "Let's Go Square Dancing!"

How about a column on how to get through a defensive line with 4 or more side-steppers? I still haven't figured that one out (freekin' Pro Elves). Fortunately, neither have my opposition (yay for Lizardmen).

tenwit wrote:How about a column on how to get through a defensive line with 4 or more side-steppers? I still haven't figured that one out (freekin' Pro Elves). Fortunately, neither have my opposition (yay for Lizardmen).

Hit them until they die. Have never played against that many side steppers, but if you are playing a fairly bashy team, move forward slowly and bash them every turn until they don't come back.

More details. Try to make sure that there aren't too many of them on your cage. Hit until they fall. If they side step in the cage, then foul them, especially if you have a DP. Keep all your guys around the ball carrier in a fairly lose cage. Use a ball carrier that has Block and ideally Dodge. Sure Hands is important if the Side Steppers have Strip Ball. If he hits your ball carrier, hopefully you have enough guys around to avoid an easy pick-up for him on his turn. Pro Elves are AV7, so you can get some of his guys off with fouls with many assists, and eventually the blocks will cause casualties. Stuns and KOs are good as well, don't absolutely need a CAS. If you have Grab, great. Stay close to the sideline and try to get the Side Steppers to crowd surf. Guard is also your friend. Keep two guarders on each corner of the cage. If the Side Stepper gets next to your ball carrier, it's a two die block you chose, so not so bad.

At a tournament, I did something like this with my Orcs against two Wardancers with Side Step, one of which had Strip Ball. All my BoBs had Guard, but no block. My cage stalled for 4-5 turns while I hit the War Dancers and the other Elves that came to help. All I did was setup to maximize my hits on the Side Steppers and their helpers. Eventually he was running out of Elves (the War Dancers were still there though, even though I got them on the ground on a regular basis). With a few turns left, I ran-in the score as he couldn't defend anymore.

In a league setting, if you put your Side Steppers in harms-way like that (i.e. side stepping in the way), they will eventually die. Would like to try that against lots of Side Steppers to see how it works though.

Cramy wrote:Pro Elves are AV7

The blitzers (the ones with Side Step) are AV8.

All good advice there, but I was asking specifically about breaking through the line when you're receiving. The standard places for four SSers are two outside the three-man front line (one row back), and two fronting the widezone defenses. Say the kick-off roll was something inoffensive like High Kick, what is the best sequence of moves + blitz to give you an advantage in the next turn?

Anyway, this was more of a suggestion for Matt's 3pow HL series. I don't really want him to give all his secrets away here, he should give some away on 3pow

tenwit wrote:How about a column on how to get through a defensive line with 4 or more side-steppers? I still haven't figured that one out (freekin' Pro Elves). Fortunately, neither have my opposition (yay for Lizardmen).

I can take that angle but if I do I have to come off of it from a "what if your opponent does this to counter your defense?" perspective. After all, HtL is about playing on the defense!