Orcs or Skaven better for a short 5-match, bashy tournament

[kiih]

Heya, first-time poster. I read the sticky and will try to be very specific in my question.

Which team would be better in a short tournament (or actually a mini-league, see two posts below): Orcs or Skaven? The tournament has three other teams: Dwarf, Undead and Human. No big guys or star players. Aside from that, straight-up LRB5 with 1 000 000 gp teams.

I have pretty much built both of the possible teams already. The teams are formed in part due to availability of painted miniatures and in part due to my preferred play style. While I'm not really looking for tips on team building (like the common "ditch the skaven thrower"), if someone sees a MAJOR flaw in the builds I would be interested to hear it. The teams I had in mind:

Skaven
2 Storm Vermin (or Blitzers, since LRB5)
2 Gutter Runners
1 Thrower
7 Linerats
Apothecary
3 RR
0 FF (or maybe a 1, still contemplating)

Orcs
4 Blitzers
3 Black Orc Blockers
1 Thrower
3 Linemen
3 RR
40k to be spent/banked, possibly 1 assistant coach, 1 cheerleader and the rest banked for a 12th player after game 1 (tips on this welcome!)

I'm torn between deciding whether the Skaven would be a great team in this tournament as there are a LOT of MA 4 or less guys, or whether it would be the worst idea ever to bring one of the most fragile teams into a pretty bashy, short tourney.

I'd be interested to hear the implications posed by the fact that it's such a short tourney. The Orcs would be a more-or-less complete team from game 1, but wouldn't probably get that many skills as they don't score much (compared to Skaven) and casualties will be difficult to achieve since the average AV of the tourney is close to 9. The Skaven team's success would, in my opinion, depend more heavily upon luck (AV and Inj rolls during the first two-three games).

I've played the Skaven team a lot more than any other team, although I'm not sure I'm making the most of their speed as I usually end up building a cage with them (some might consider it a bad move for a Skaven coach). I'm not looking for tips on how to play Skaven, just informing of my game style. I just figure that if there's any place where I can best utilize the Skaven's strength (their speed), it's this tournament.

I've played BB since LRB3, but not very often (maybe 30 games in total). The other players in the tournament have played less and I do consider myself to be the best player among us (though not by a large margin).

Besides the answer to the poll, any other input is also welcome!

[Cramy]

From what you are describing, this is more of a mini-league than a tournament. Injuries are applied game over game (i.e. no resurection) and the teams gain money and SPPs and skills.

Well, both teams will do well I think.

But for 5 games, my view is to go all out. You won't have time to buy players, so you want the players with the most impact to start in the roster and use them to their full potential.

For the Skaven, get all 4 GRs. I always start with 4 GRs. They are the key to winning. You are faster than the opposition. Get a player with kick ASAP. This would usually be a linerat, but for a 5 game league/tourney, I would even give kick to a blitzer. Kick to one of the corners, then use your speed to cause a turnover and score. Repeat process until half ends.

For the Orcs, I'd upgrade a LineOrc into a BoB. Then the intent is to outbash your opponents and control the clock. If a BoB gets a skill, give him Guard. Unless you are extremely lucky, they "may" get one skill. Guard is the more useful skill. If it was a long league, then Block can be considered better as it will help the BoB get his second skill quicker. But for 5 games, they won't get a second skill. I would probably give Guard to the Blitzers too. For Lineorcs, they get Block. For the Thrower, as you are unlikely to face players with strip ball that can get to your ball carrier, I would probably give him Leader. I would use Blitzers as my ball carriers. 3 RRs + the Leader RR is good when you don't have block on the BoBs.

Hope this helps.

Oh, and I voted Skaven, but only if you get 4 GRs.

[kiih]

Thanks for the input! It does seem like good advice. I still have some issues with four ST 2 players with AV 7, but you're not the first person to state that the GRs ARE the Skaven team. I'll contemplate on this... Kick would also have been my primary skill choice, especially now that Bad Kick is gone.

And yes, I guess it's more like a mini-league than a tournament. If it makes any difference, the structure is as follows:

- 4 teams
- everone plays against the other 3 teams
- wins are worth 2 points, ties 1 and losses 0, obviously
- the winner of the round plays against the loser, the second and third place play each other
- the winners of those matches go to the final
- losers play the "bronze" match

Sound advice, keep it coming!

[stashman]

Skaven will do very good as a rookie team, but here is my advice to you.

2x Blitzer
4x Gutter Runner
5x Linerat

4x RR

10K cash

First thing to buy is apothecary.

[ngoike]

If you are really limited on miniatures, and only have what your two teams curently show, I'd use the orc line up, it's more solid, though I think the 4th black orc is never a bad idea.

As other are mentioning for a skaven team 2 gutter runners is pretty limiting, and I wouldn't personally recommend it. They get injured pretty easily, and tend to attract blitzes, with only 2 you face a real possiblity of losing both early in the game.

[DoubleSkulls]

Skaven will probably win more often than Orcs - but will tank more often too as Av7 may bite.

Don't take FF. If you have small change left best to bank for the apoth.

For 5 games I'd take a roster like a TV100 tournament. So for the skaven drop the thrower and don't buy one at all. Another line rat is handy.

Orcs spend the money to upgrade a line orc to the 4th BOB.

[PubBowler]

Skaven will probably win more often than Orcs - but will tank more often too as Av7 may bite.

Don't take FF. If you have small change left best to bank for the apoth.

For 5 games I'd take a roster like a TV100 tournament. So for the skaven drop the thrower and don't buy one at all. Another line rat is handy.

Orcs spend the money to upgrade a line orc to the 4th BOB.

Ditto

[kiih]

I'm surprised at how even the poll is!

Orcs are better with 4 BOBs, roger that. Seems rational, especially since there's a nice wad of cash left over. How about the remaining 10k, bank it or FF or AC/CL?

How about the Skaven lineup? I REALLY don't like the idea of 11 players and no apothecary, as was suggested above. I'll be lucky of I can field six players on the second half against dwarves. How does 3 GRs sound? I often have spare RRs at the end of the halves with my normal Skaven lineup (though it includes a thrower, who doesn't burn many RRs). I guess I'll just have to accept that a GR beats the thrower since so many of you are saying so. I'm just pretty terrified of the Dwarf match (tackles and blocks all-around).

Good info, any help is still very welcome!

[wesleytj]

I, unlike everyone else it seems like skaven throwers, and I did note you weren't really looking for that kind of advice anyway.

Seriously, orcs and skaven are two of the more successful tourney teams there are. But typically tourneys are "resurrection" style, which tends to allow you to take a bit more of a chance with the skaven roster, knowing that everybody will be back for game2.

Because of that, I would go with the orc lineup. With the opponent's you've got, I think there's something to be said for having higher armor. And yes, if you can scrounge up figs for them, you want as many black orcs as you can. I'd also consider getting a goblin if you have a fig for that. I tend to shy away from line orcs entirely on the 11 orc roster.

[Cramy]

Well, against the Dwarves, the more GRs you have the better. Keep the longbeards busy with your linerats (that's what they are there for) to avoid having your GRs getting hit with players with tackle, then run around the other guys with the GRs. Use the Blitzers to poke holes, and run/dodge like hell.

If you can manage to outposition your opponent and have guys between the longbeards and the rest of his team, then dodge-out of the TZs with your linerats at the end of your turn to avoid getting hit.

With only 2 GRs, it is much easier to tie them up. And one or two GRs will likely get KOed or worse, so only having two means that your in trouble.

If you setup 6 guys towards the end of the game and you have 2-3 GRs in there, you aren't doing too bad. Hopefully you have scored a few times already. But if you have 6 guys setup and you have 0-1 GRs, then your in trouble if you need to score quickly or cause a turnover.

What I have found with my Skaven is if I keep enough pressure on the ball carrier, even if it is only the threat of my GRs getting at the ball carrier, my opponent gets really nervous and concentrates on trying to score instead of killing all of my guys. That's good, cause you can score back when he kicks to you (if you didn't steal the ball from him and score already), and you will limit the injuries.