Skaven team for a short league

Setomidor · Post by **Setomidor** » Sun Mar 01, 2009 4:38 pm

We're about to start a pretty short league (roughly 17-18 games) with fresh 1000k teams and only minor modifications to the standard rules.

The league rule that has the biggest impact on team development is that two players on the same position may not share the same set of skills. In practise, this means that teams will probably end up with roughly the same team in the end, but the progress towards half a team full of block+dodgers will take considerably longer since you have to throw in other skills in the mix too.

Another important change is that the MVP can be awarded by the coaches themselves, making it easier to obtain skills on key positions.

For a starting team, I'm considering:

Rat Ogre 150k
Blitzer 90k
Thrower 70k
Gutter Runner 80k
Gutter Runner 80k
6 Linerats 300k
Apotecary 50k
3 Rerolls 180k

Total: 1000k

I know the Rat Ogre is a controversial choise, especially since this effectively limits the number of starting players to 11. However, with some juicy stunty teams in the league and the option to distribute the MVP for each game freely, the beastie has some potential to quickly gain some skills to make him even more dangerous. The apotecary is basically there to protect the expensive players from first game casualtees.

So the first question is basically: any thoughs on the initial lineup?

The second question concerns the skill allocation of the Rat Ogre. Of course, the skills has to complement whatever skills the rest of the players get, but I'm still trying to list the potential choises.

How about:
Single rolls: Guard, Multiple Block?, Piling On?, Juggernaut?
Dubble rolls: Block, Tentacles, Claws

As you can see I'm having the most problems with the most likely choise - the regular skill rolls. For doubles, Block goes without saying, Tentacles complements the Prehensile Tail and Guard nicely, and Claws makes even heavily armoured foes think twice about closing in for blocks.

Any input on the rambling above is very much appreciated!

Tripleskull · Post by **Tripleskull** » Sun Mar 01, 2009 4:59 pm

I would cut the apo to get an extra blitzer and upgrade a trower to a gutter. The block, AV 8 will help you not get hurt almost as much as the apo. And the gutter runners are the game winners = money makers...

I like starting with thw RO. ST 5 and frenzy, mighty blow makes a big differens when the opponant only has 11 players.

For skills on the RO I would take juggernaut first to stabalize the blitzing, then guard to help other players. If you go for piling on I think you should take claw on a double, assuming you already have juggernaut. Another road is break tackle as 3rd skill or maby even as 2nd.

Post by **DoubleSkulls** » Sun Mar 01, 2009 8:49 pm

Juggernaut I'd take as the first skill on the Rat Ogre. It gives you a relatively reliable way to punch holes in the opposition line.

Setomidor · Post by **Setomidor** » Mon Mar 02, 2009 7:52 am

Yeah juggernaut seems like a good first choise, although the drawback is that block and juggernaut kind of overlap (and you'd like block for defensive purposes anyway).

Any oppinions on Stand Firm? It seems like it would be great in combination with many of the other choises (SF + Juggernaut + Frenzy for some crowd pushing goodness, SF + Perhensile Tail + Tentacles for dodge denial, SF + Guard for a stong mid-pile player, etc.)

I'm tempted by dropping the apo to upgrade some players as Tripleskull proposes, although I've got a bad feeling about not being able to save the life of the Rat Ogre

Another question, is it actually worth getting a full 16 player roster considering the added Team Value (both for spiralling expenses and inducements)? Roughly 14 players in the team should be sufficient in order to field 11 of them most of the time, and it seems inducements and extra rerolls is a better option than a 6:th or 7:th linerat.

Tripleskull · Post by **Tripleskull** » Mon Mar 02, 2009 8:27 am

Well if you are lucky enough to get a double, you should worry about the overlap then... And as I said before, take claw, piling on - with jugger, frenzy migthy blow. That will give you about 50 % chance of taking a player of the field every time you block or blitz with him.

Stand Firm is a great skill, but I would want break tackle and guard first on the RO. Skavens need some guard players, and can realy utilize from have cage breaking options. SF tail is better for lizards, since they can aply pressure to the cage instead of breaking it by sacking the ballcarrier. AV 7 is a problem for skavens in this sense. But you can build a block, diving trackle, side step gutter and put him and a SF RO on the ballcarrier.

Key to saving the RO is not putting it on the line for starters. Like you shouldnt put the blitzers on the line. It works great when it works, but it kills you when it doesnt. There can be situations where they should go on the line, but generally you want the to stay on the field, so sacrifice linerats... thats what they are for. Im not gonna say there is no risk involved in starting without apo, but starting with only one block player sucks big time. You need the RRs on the gutters, so you can score 5-6 TDs per game...

Setomidor · Post by **Setomidor** » Mon Mar 02, 2009 10:21 am

Yeah only three luchy Linerats tend to get the "honor" of setting up at the line of scrimmage, the other players are far too valuable for that

Speaking of piling on (and wrestle), it should be possible to stand up again during the same blitz action given that you have sufficient movement left, right? That makes piling on very tempting, as the Rat Ogre is no longer lying around waiting to be fouled...

Tripleskull · Post by **Tripleskull** » Mon Mar 02, 2009 11:16 am

That is not possible.

Ullis · Post by **Ullis** » Mon Mar 02, 2009 11:35 am

I would probably aim for the RO to only get one skill, if at all. Block on doubles or Guard on a normal roll. Juggernaut only works on blitzing and I'd rather not blitz with the RO unless I really have to. At least I wouldn't give him MVP's.

My plan would be to (in no order of particular importance):

1. Give a MVP to a linerat who gets a cas or a TD and give him Kick (or Guard on doubles, but then get Kick quickly on someone else)
2. Give a MVP on any blitzer who gets a cas or a TD and give him Guard
3. Give a MVP on any blitzer who gets a cas or a TD and give him Mighty Blow (Dodge or Claw on doubles depending on the other teams)
4. No MVP's on the thrower or linerats
5. Use MVP's (and TD's) to get two skills (Wrestle, Dauntless/Horns, Strip Ball) on one GR quickly
6. Make a one-turner from the first GR to get +MA

Andromidius · Post by **Andromidius** » Mon Mar 02, 2009 3:18 pm

You can only stand up at the beginning of an action.

~Andromidius

Post by **DoubleSkulls** » Tue Mar 03, 2009 6:46 am

For me Rat Ogres either have two jobs on the team - marker/supporter or blitzer. Better to be good a one that mediocore at both imo.

Blitzer goes Juggernaut - Break Tackle
Marker goes - Stand Firm - Guard

I'd never take Piling On on a wild animal since you lose a lot of the upside of WA if you go prone (and as others have said you can't stand up in the same action).

Juggernaut does combo well with block in a couple of regards. First of all it stops Wrestle working. So against wrestle players you can put them down and roll armour. Obviously it cancels stand firm too - giving you better opportunities to counter SF based defence (and better crowd surfing) AND it means on a both down you can still choose to push - which means you are better at opening the hole in the line (or crowd surfing). So I'd definitely not consider juggernaut/block a bad combination on a S5 Frenzy player

Given that skavs really want a blitzing Rat Ogre to open up holes for gutter runners to go through juggernaut is a good skill regardless of anything else.

Setomidor · Post by **Setomidor** » Tue Mar 03, 2009 3:22 pm

Thanks for all the feedback everyone

Too bad it's not possible to stand up again after doing piling on or similar, as that leaves the biggie in a quite exposed position (and Wild Animal makes blitzing the most tempting alternative for getting up).

Ullis: That's a really good plan actually

A question on number 5, would you rate Wrestle or Strip ball higher than Block? What about Leap?

Ian: Yeah, that does make sense. I think I'm more inclined towards the Marker alternative (also using Stand Firm to reduce the risk of retribution when crowd pushing), possibly adding Block or Tentacles to the list of skills you already have mentioned. Damn, how am I ever gonna get five skills on a Rat Ogre?

mattgslater · Post by **mattgslater** » Wed Mar 04, 2009 2:48 am

If you're using a GR as a receiver, Block is better than Wrestle, as Block will keep him standing.

If you're using him as a blitzer, Wrestle is better than Block against guys with Block, which will often include the ball carrier.

If you're man-marking, it's a wash. Block is better if the opponent brings in a guy to knock your GR off his man, but Wrestle is better if the marked player tries to do it himself. Generally, when you're trying to stop a TD, this puts the advantage on Block, but a GR is ST2, so the unassisted blitz is a viable tactic for many ball-carriers.

MA9 is also good for Wrestle. You can Wrestle, then move 6 next turn.

Ullis · Post by **Ullis** » Wed Mar 04, 2009 7:49 am

Setomidor wrote:Ullis: That's a really good plan actually A question on number 5, would you rate Wrestle or Strip ball higher than Block? What about Leap?

I'd aim at building one GR with Wrestle and Strip Ball, in that order. Then you can block a ball carrier 2-d against if you can't get any assists and have a good chance of getting the ball out if he doesn't have Sure Hands (which many starting teams lack). Wrestle is much better as then it doesn't matter if he has Block. You just need Wrestle first because it makes a 2-d against block so much more reliable. If the opponent can choose Both Down (even if he doesn't have Block), he'll do that because it ends your turn.

Anyway, on the Strip Ball GR I would definitely get Wrestle. On the others it's more of a matter of taste. As matt pointed out, Block is generally better on offence and Wrestle on defence. Against stunties Block is excellent and much better than Wrestle.

I (personally) don't think Gutter Runners need leap unless they have +AG. AG4 leaping is too unreliable and the MV9+Dodge usually get's you anywhere you might want to leap to anyway (the major exception to this is into a cage). For the Strip Baller Dauntless or Horns is still a better third pick. Maybe as a fourth skill.

Post by **DoubleSkulls** » Thu Mar 05, 2009 2:40 am

mattgslater wrote:MA9 is also good for Wrestle. You can Wrestle, then move 6 next turn.

And you have one less set of TZ's to worry about too...

Setomidor · Post by **Setomidor** » Tue Mar 24, 2009 1:03 pm

So after a four leaguegames my team now looks like the following:

Squeekalots (Skaven)

Rat Ogre, Juggernaut, 12 SPPs
Blitzer, Guard, 11 SPPs
Blitzer, Claws, Mighty Blow, 19 SPPs
Thrower, Kick-off return, 6 SPPs
Thrower
Gutter Runner, Nerves of Steel, 6 SPPs
Gutter Runner, Very Long Legs, 6 SPPs
Gutter Runner, +MA, Sprint, 19 SPPs
Linerat
Linerat, -ST, 2 SPPs
Linerat
Linerat, Kick, 6 SPPs

3 RR
5 FF
Apo

10k in bank

1430 Team value

During the last game I inflicted 10 (ten) casualtees, of which I got SPPs for 8. This is the main reason why I have a huge number of SPPs in only four games (20 SPP awarding CAS and 9 TDs).

Suggestions on where to go from here?

My plan is roughly:
- Get another Linerat or two, and then fire the ST 2 guy.
- Save up for another RR
- Get Leap for the VLL guy, and Piling-On for the Blitzer with Claws / MB

As MVPs can be awarded by each coach, I have the option of giving another advance to both the Guard Blitzer and the Rat Ogre, but as before I'm a bit unsure of what their skills would be.

Advice and oppionions?