How to beat dwarfs.... and avoid boredom!

[martynq]

I've got yet another match in the MBBL where my opponent if a dwarf coach... and once again I find myself hating it and without a clue how to win.

We all know how to coach dwarves (summed up very eloquently by Norse in a discussion of dwarf tactics), but how do you coach against them?

I'm currently coaching elves and find myself falling over when making dodges far too often.

On the other hand, if it is impossible for an elf team to beat a dwarf team, how do I actually avoid being bored by my opponent playing dwarf-bowl?

Finally, RANT MODE ON. (The following is probably to be taken with a pinch of salt

Shouldn't longbeards be toned down a bit? I mean Block, Tackle, Thick Skull and AV9????? I guess that Jervis' favourite team must be dwarves!



Cheers,
Martyn

[MickeX]

That's a good question.

Defense against dwarfes isn't that different from defense against other ST-teams, but I find going on offense against them a bit tricky.

I usually play a relatively fast orc team, and prefer the running play. Against dwarfes I've used the MV to try to shift focus, first ganging up on the left side and then at the right moment suddenly shift and get those blitzers with some back-up on the right side instead.

If they play a deep defense, I try bashing them up at the LOS until they need reinforcements. If they play with everything the've got at the front line, smashing through with a ball-carrying blitzer going for it is the way to go. However you need to get a few other players through too, who can block the way for those dwarfes trying to run for the ballcarrier. And make sure what's left of your front line effectively ties up those of his players that aren't too far away from the action.

But playing against dwarfes must be a lot easier with orcs than with elves. At least I can afford taking the blocks that will be coming at my players when they're tying up dwarfes like that...

However, remember that you're strenght 3 too. And you've got the movement and AG to back it up. That's a good start for exploiting his mistakes. Us ST-team players sometimes have a tendency to forget that elves actually can make a very effective series of blocks just because they normally avoid the brawls.

Good luck anyway!

Micke

[martynq]

That's a good question.

Yep... any other suggestions?

Defense against dwarfes isn't that different from defense against other ST-teams,

Except that other ST-teams don't all have Tackle on just about every player, so I can rely on dodging my players away with skills to back up the movement. With dwarves, I end up wasting re-rolls and suffering turnovers.

It really does seem that the original design was for dwarves to be invincible when coached by a decent coach.

Please, more help from all you great BB players out there!

Cheers,
Martyn

[Mestari]

The low movement is one keypoint to defeating dwarves. Dwarves need to be positioned very carefully and movement with them is very "committing" - committing a lineman (=LB) to one side of the pitch really keeps him there. Their cages cannot move fast or they leave the MA4 players behind, so their cages lack mobility.

Offense:
Try to fool him. If you try to break through without an alternative you end up banging your head against a wall. If you keep your options varied, he has to commit players to counter the other options. When the right chance comes up, quickly change your focus from one place to the most vulnerable spot and break through there. He doesn't have enough players to cover everything in a fashion that's unbreakable.

Defense:
Two routes you can take:
Aggressive - challenge his cage.
Conservative - 1-square distance.
Make him get nervous. If you play right, he'll have to move his cage also in the sideways direction - make it seem like he has to leave those linemen (=LBeards) behind in order to get to the EZ in time. When the ball-carrier leaves the comfort of 10 dwarves surrounding him and remains with a small handful of defenders, then you get him. And be sure to have someone up the field so that you can pass the ball to him in case you get lucky.

But still, there is no definite way to beat them. As a dwarf coach I know that if the cage is advancing too slowly, at some point you start to wonder if you manage to get there in time, forcing you to make more risky attempts. Those are always the times when I've lost the ball if I have lost it.

[Haar]

I agree with teemu. Now let it be said that I just lost two games in a row to dwarf teams (one dwarf, one chaos dwarf). But both of those games were close, and hinged on a bit of luck going one way or another (I failed my 2+ catch roll, so my opponent got the ball and made a couple of 5+ pass/catch rolls).

But if you have some blockers (say you're playing a DE team with 4 blitzers), challenge his cage. Put some blockers on the back corners of the cage, so even if he knocks you over he cannot follow up to move the cage forward one.

Make sure you put guys in the way of the diagonal run, remember his runners have MA 6. Put your guys two deep in the important parts so even if he blitzes you, he's still gotta dodge.

Whenever possible, foul anybody with AG3. Try scoring without runners!

You can beat dwarfball, you have to be really patient to do so, though.

I agree with the sentiment that dwarfs are a little overpowered. Longbeards are awfully good, rerolls are dirt cheap, and the runners get passing skills! If they only had access to strength and general skills, it would be a little better, IMO.

[Zombie]

Well, it's all in the perspective really. Dwarf coaches usually hate playing against elves, they find elf-bowl boring as all hell, and they think that line-elves are too good with their AG4 and should be toned down!

Since i stopped playing elves (after many years, seasons and teams) and started playing bashing teams (still learning, but getting better at it), i would tend to agree with them!

[Cervidal]

Dwarves peak a helluva lot faster than any other team. They also advance their skills very, very slowly. Kinda fits with their offense.

Dwarves are only daunting to begin with. Any orc team with a few Guard Blitzers can smoke them pretty easily on the LOS when you combine them with Black Orcs. Elves can break up cages with Leap, Chaos with muscle, and Lizardmen with annoying stunties.

Dwarves have their weaknesses. As an elf coach, just distract him. On defense, play exactly one square away from whatever kind of cage he sets up. Get your guys away from him. Yeah, sure, you'll burn through your rerolls a bit more quickly. That's what they're for. You don't even have to attack his cage. Just keep bodies in front of him. He can only blitz one elf per turn.

On offense, like it was stated above, force him to commit one direction of the pitch or the other. If he doesn't bite, force his players to commit, yourself. Set up the old-fashioned, Witch Elf-style conga line and block the little buggers where you want them to go. You don't even need to knock them over, just make sure to get the push result.

Worst case, get a Dirty Player ready and kick the snot out of his AG3 players when they're exposed.

[SixFootDwarf]

Spoken by someone that's been beaten up a few too many times by a good ground game. Bash doesn't mean boring. That's frustration talking. Not just any blood-crazed mongrel can play Dwarves, Marty.

Elves can get themselves out of trouble quite easily by just dodging away or zooming all over the field. And that high movement can really save your butt when you need it, huh? MV8, ST3 HE catchers, or MV9 WE catchers...and don't even make me mention the sickest position player in all of Blood Bowl: the Wardancer. A Wardancer with 2 skills is nearly unstoppable. If you goof, just run your whole team all the way across the field and set up a defense again.

If you screw up with Dwarves, the other team scores. Period. The fastest Dwarf can barely catch the slowest Elf. So if your positioning isn't perfect you get flanked. If you get flanked, the other team scores. Period. We can't just dodge out at will to blitz a ballcarrier...50% we'll fail, and if you fail they score. Period.

So I don't wanna hear this "Dwarf-ball is 'boring'" and all that crap. The Dwarf vs. Elf thing will never go away...just do what you do, and we'll do what we do. Hurt you.

But if you really want advice...stomp on the Runners til your feet get sore. Then use your elbows. When they're gone it's over. Unless he's groomed an offensive Blitzer. Oh, and stay away from everyone else.

[martynq]

Thanks for the comments so far. Firstly, I'd like to say that perhaps I was being a bit unfair and unclear when using the word `bored'. The crucial thing is it is me that is getting bored. Sure my opponent is perfectly entitled to play that way, but I don't seem to have anyway of countering it and just end up wishing the end of the game would come. It's not that his tactics are boring, it's that my lack of any clue how to counter it is getting dull.

I was trying to play the dodge away game, but I seem to roll an inordinate number of 1s. In the first seven turns of my current PBEM game, I've rolled five 1s in eleven dodge rolls.

To clarify my team, I'm playing dark elves (see http://www.blood-bowl.net/MBBL/Season2/ ... ration.htm). I have two blitzers, two witch elves, and eight linemen. This teams has played dwarves twice before (so I'm in the middle of my third match against dwarves) and has always lost.

I can't get anywhere near the AG3 players. He just puts longbeards next to my players who promptly fall over as when I attempt to dodge.

Help!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Martyn

[Marcus]

My only quick suggestion to screwing up Dwarven offence is to get a kicker, kick deep, and get players around to split the backfield from the LoS.

Keeping the Dwarf team as split up and isolated as possible is the key. Tactics that revolve around "what to do when dwarves form a rolling maul" are very much an object lesson in "what you shouldnt' have let happen".

[martynq]

How deep is deep? I've got a kicker and placed the ball three squares from the sideline and endzone line. Unfortunately it bounced all towards the LoS, so was easily retrieved by the dwarves and they formed a cage before I could get there.

One thing to point out is that in PBEM the ball is placed before the receiving team sets up, which causes problems.

Cheers,
Martyn

[Mestari]

" I've rolled five 1s in eleven dodge rolls."

"This teams has played dwarves twice before (so I'm in the middle of my third match against dwarves) and has always lost."

"I can't get anywhere near the AG3 players. He just puts longbeards next to my players who promptly fall over as when I attempt to dodge."

I think part of the problem is there. It's hard to say that you always lose against someone if you only played three games against them. Three lost games can be just a matter of luck. And if you've managed to roll really bad, that's exactly that - bad luck.

As with most tactics with BB - dodge away-tactics work as long as you don't fail most of your rolls (or the crucial ones).
On average you should succeed in dodging away and staying one square apart. And be sure to have back-up players that are moved in first before the rest start dodging. Use blitzes to shift the odds to your favour and force him to bring the AG3 players to you by making him feel that he won't reach the EZ otherwise.