Mv10 Gutter Runner - What now?

Wylder · Post by **Wylder** » Wed Apr 29, 2009 5:07 am

Hi Guys,

I've got a runner who had block as his first skill, and then rolled a 6+4. Obviously, I took the movement.

However, the question comes to mind, what do I actually do with this guy on the field? I've never had a 10mv guy on the field before. I understand that with a careful chainpush, I can OTS with him. Is this a good idea? Is it likely to actually work? My current team is actually fairly rookie, and has no guard since my stormvermin haven't skilled yet. It seems to me that for the OTS chainpush to work reliably I need a guard player.

Secondly, what do I do next with him? Obviously people are going to suggest sprint, but is this actually a good idea? The idea of making a pass, catch (possibly a handoff), at least one block, and then 3x GFIs all in the same turn with everything riding on it, doesn't actually appeal to me a lot. Anyone got any practical experience on this?

If we're not talking about OTS, is there anything else he is specifically good for?

Any help is appreciated. Next game is against necros if it helps. Other teams in the near future are high elves, undead and chaos dwarves.

howlinggriffon · Post by **howlinggriffon** » Wed Apr 29, 2009 7:08 am

If you do manage to give him Sprint, make sure you buy enough other players so you only need to field him when you receive. My GR with +1 MV and Sprint scored one single OTT before being fouled to death in the very next turn - which was my fault because I had a short bench.

Lictor · Post by **Lictor** » Wed Apr 29, 2009 7:41 am

There are two thoughts on this, extra great scorer or fantastic sweeper. Give him Side Step and Diving Tackle if you don't want to push for him as a scorer. But basically, once he has all those skills, open a hole in the cage, sit him on the ball carrier, blitz the ball carrier, worse case scenario is skulls/pushbacks, but then Blodge-SS-DT comes into it's own. Ideally you want 2 Blodge/SS/DT's on a ball carrier for maximum irritation but with MA10, decide to make him a scorer or sweeper and just focus on that. If he lives long enough, Tackle and Shadowing will make him the most annoying defender, pity he isn't St 3.

I have a Wood Elf Catcher who is 10 3 4 7 and a TD away from skilling up again. I'm not sure whether to make him a scorer or Sweeper either. With the new rules probably a Sweeper but I won't know until I bring the team out of retirement.

Post by **DoubleSkulls** » Wed Apr 29, 2009 7:44 am

I'm not a big fan of building OTS (because its dull rather than ineffective), and I won't normally do it unless I get gifted the +MA early on. Sprint & Sure Feet next. Grab on a blitzer will be very useful (more so than guard) for getting 1 turners out of him using chain pushes. A Rat Ogre is very useful for them too.

mubo · Post by **mubo** » Wed Apr 29, 2009 9:27 am

I had a GR in our local league who got exactly the same.
With sprint you don't need chainpushes, which makes a huge difference. You might be better off waiting for MA 1st roll, as block is wasted on a pure one drive player.

With a reroll and sprint/sure feet you chances of making a 1TTD are actually pretty good, even if the opponent is well prepared. Esp if they are down to 10 or less players. With the player you currently have a 1TT is eminently possible. Less so if your opponent is prepared, but still well worth a shot.

Had another who got MA first skill, he become +MA, horns, wrestle. A good ball hunter, and a 1TT threat. In hindsight I should have turned him into a dedicated one turner, but didn't want to turn down the double.

I have never taken grab on a vermin, but I can see the usefulness for a 1TT, also for setting up crowdsurfs with the rat ogre. Not sure if it's better than guard/frenzy/MB though.

S2 doesn't make a good sweeper. Also MA7 is adequate to cover the backfield.

PubBowler · Post by **PubBowler** » Wed Apr 29, 2009 9:39 am

He doesn't need a need any more building to be a OTS threat.
One chainpush is easy to get.

For me, I'd give him protective and ball retrieval skills but not use him for blitzing the ball carrier, leave that to others.

So Block, Side Step, Leap on normals, Big Hand on doubles, maybe FA on a 2nd.

He's got the movement to get the ball away (a long way away) if you bust it loose.

But this is all speaking from a Skaven opponent point of view, in fact, on reflection, give him Frenzy and Diving Catch, Multiple Block on doubles...

mubo · Post by **mubo** » Wed Apr 29, 2009 10:20 am

PubBowler wrote: So Block, Side Step, Leap on normals, Big Hand on doubles, maybe FA on a 2nd.

2 heads is also a good doubles choice.

Rab · Post by **Rab** » Wed Apr 29, 2009 12:29 pm

I had a stonking couple of games in our league and now have two MA-10, Block gutter runners

and hadn't really considered anything other than using them as rapid scoring machines (I find OTS too distracting to have as a set tactic and it kinda screws up my play so only try for them on a Quick Snap, say, or if my opponent hasn't covered the scrimmage line fully).

This thread has given me a bit more breadth of thought for developing them further. Thanks, guys.

Post by **DoubleSkulls** » Wed Apr 29, 2009 12:52 pm

The thing with having an OTS is against many teams they can either defend the line or the OTS... so many will end up doing both badly or just allow you to pick the other tactic and score anyway.

plasmoid · Post by **plasmoid** » Wed Apr 29, 2009 2:17 pm

Rather than sprint, take sidestep.
It easily gives one square, and is also more generally useful.
Leap and sure feet are also good skills for both OTs'ing, and for when he's on the pitch for normal BB.

Block is no good on OTS, but it sure will make him live longer.

OTS is a valuable skaven tactic.
I only consider it cheesy when it is used on every friggin offense.
Then again, the mere threat may force your opponent into some pretty weak defensive set-ups - which will make it easy for you to score in 2 instead.

Good luck with him.
Cheers
Martin

Carnis · Post by **Carnis** » Wed Apr 29, 2009 3:16 pm

plasmoid wrote:Rather than sprint, take sidestep.
It easily gives one square, and is also more generally useful.

So SS works on all pushes, not just pushes where you were blocked? In the javabowl client it only works if you get blocked, not chainblocked.. The skill description does not mention other players being pushed to you, like the stand firm skill does.

Cramy · Post by **Cramy** » Wed Apr 29, 2009 4:41 pm

I used mine as an OTS threat, but mostly as the ball carrier in my back-field on offense. With MA10 and Sure Feet, he can stay back with the ball, and run 12 squares fairly easily to hand-off to another GR to score.

Block will allow him to live longer, which is never bad.

But he can excel on defence IMO. Side Step and Shadowing is what I'd give him, followed by Sprint. With MA10 and Sure Feet, he's a great mobile assist for your other players, being able to cover 12 squares. Then when the time is right, surround the ball carrier and the cage. I like to have two Block/Side Step GRs, with either Shadowing or DT or both skills on them. If you attack the cage with many players at the same time (including the Rat Ogre), your opponent will not concentrate on the MA10 guy has he has to throw many blocks and he will definitely want to get the Rat Ogre out of the way. And if he hits the block/SS guys, they can SS next to the ball carrier. Then let Shadowing/DT do their thing.

If you need to OTS in the last turn, now you will have an easier time at it (using chain pushes if he doesn't have Sprint). And as others have stated, it will affect your opponent's defensive setup, which you can take advantage of in the first turn or two. And if you completely ignores the OTS threat, setup the MA 10 GR on the line and if the scenario lines-up (a touch-back comes to mind) then go for it and score. He'll setup differently next time, and you can take advantage of that.

A large part of BB IMO is to keep your opponent out of balance, force him not to follow his game plan. Skaven excel at that. GRs and the Rat Ogre are the tools to use for this.

Oh, on another note, get the kick skill on a linerat ASAP. With Block, Dodge, and MA10, go get that ball (with protection if you want him to get other balls in the future).

Rhyoth · Post by **Rhyoth** » Wed Apr 29, 2009 5:37 pm

I don't have much more to say.
Just don't focus on OTS : skavens have many other ways to win.

For your guy, I'd take Sure Feet, Leap and Sure Hand/Big Hand on double :
_he's still great for OTS (with a chainpush)
_he makes a fantastic ball retreiver
_until he get there, you can use him in your backfield as Cramy explain before me.

You keep the possibility to give him Sprint later, but if you give him thhis skill first, then :
_you just will fail more GFI if you use Sprint without Sure Feet
_what will you do if your fantastic guy just make a double next, or gain AG or ST ?

Rab · Post by **Rab** » Thu Apr 30, 2009 8:58 am

Rhyoth wrote:_what will you do if your fantastic guy ... gain ... ST ?

Now I like the sound of that - an AG 4, MA 10, Blodge, ST 3 player? Mwahahaha!!!

Ullis · Post by **Ullis** » Thu Apr 30, 2009 9:34 am

I have a +ST, +AG, Wrestle Gutter Runner on my MBBL skaven team. Earlier he'd gotten -AV and now he got fouled for a niggle. I think I'm going to fire him now as it's too easy to get him off the field now. Although with Leap he'd be pretty special.

I'd give that rat Sprint just to make it easier to OTS. Setting up against a chain push is too easy and skaven teams don't have too many players with S skill access anyway to bother with Grab. Even with Grab the skaven team still needs at least one push on the first block and that's more unlikely even with 2 dice (55 % chance of success) than making three GFI's (57 % chance of success without rerolls). For Grab to work properly the skaven team needs Guard too. Pushing this guy forward one square still means there are two GFI's left. Getting the ball to him is probably easier with the Sprint option as the chain pushing thing probably means that he needs to catch in at least one TZ.

Mind you, I'd still only use him in turn 8 and 16 for OTS normally and I'm not too bothered about it being boring.