Doubles for Gobbos

Wanchor · Post by **Wanchor** » Wed Aug 12, 2009 6:52 am

I've only just recently gotten my first doubles roll with a normal goblin and I'm not quite sure what to take. The roll was a double 5 as well, throwing in the +AV and +MA to the menu. My first inclination is to take Guard, but Dauntless also seems within the 'character' of the player. I'm concerned, however, that Dauntless will only ever be of much use 1) on the blitz and 2) with an assist, and since I'd rather blitz with a chainsaw or troll if possible, it may be a bit of a waste. Further still, +1 MA could well give him the edge in mobility to score without a slew of GFI rolls and +1 AV could have him stick around on the team for a while, which might be nice.

Anyway, the rest of the team has a bunch of Diving Tackle players, some Side-Step, a Sneaky Git and a Diving Catch for good measure; one troll has Stand Firm and Multiple Block, while the other is a rookie (just bought after my troll with Block and Pro bit the dust >:- ( ).

Let me know what you guys think, if you please.

Catt · Post by **Catt** » Wed Aug 12, 2009 8:32 am

Its a difficult one.

I've never played with Goblins but I have played against them a couple of times and their durability seems to be one of their major problems. Because of this +1 AV is tempting as is Block.

It may not be the best idea (by some way!) but Hail Mary Pass is an interesting option for emergencies when you have to get the ball out of your half. If you had more than one goblin with diving catch it might be worth considering as an alternative to throw-team mate for those surprising touchdowns.

Guard would be the choice on pretty much any other team that can't take strength skills but I am not convinced that a single player with guard on a strength 2 team is going to be super useful. If you had a few players with it then yes but not so sure with just the one.

I'd be interested to hear what other people think.

cyagen · Post by **cyagen** » Wed Aug 12, 2009 8:55 am

I would be tempted to take Wrestle, that would make him a great cage invader even at 2d against.

Catt · Post by **Catt** » Wed Aug 12, 2009 9:01 am

cyagen wrote:I would be tempted to take Wrestle, that would make him a great cage invader even at 2d against.

Didn't think of wrestle. Nice idea.

Grogmir · Post by **Grogmir** » Wed Aug 12, 2009 10:18 am

The trouble is theres is so many things you need with a doubles...

Block, Wrestle are always lovely on Gobbos, but my first double on a unskill Gobbo is normally Sure hands.

If you got none I would be tempted with that.. or the +1MA, or the +1AV or... or...

Yeah there's a lot of choices

Smeborg · Post by **Smeborg** » Wed Aug 12, 2009 10:33 am

What doubles skill you take depends on the shape of your roster (primarily), and also on the rules edition that you are using.

I am playing 6th Ed. (2008 RR + Experimental) and am running a lean Orc team with 4 Gobbos and no Black Orcs, no Troll. They play as a passing team on offense. They are highly successful so far.

The plan is to develop 2 Gobbos for offense (Diving Catch, Catch, Sidestep as normal skills, Nerves of Steel, Block, Fend as doubles skills). 2 Gobbos will be developed for defense (Sidestep, Diving Tackle, Jump Up as normal skills, Wrestle, Fend, Dauntless as doubles skills).

After Wrestle, Strip Ball may be an interesting skill on Gobbos, too.

But in a pure Gobbo team, I would be tempted to go with the "boring" Sure Hands, too. But Hail Mary Pass is interesting, too. Choices, choices...

Hope this helps.

fire olli · Post by **fire olli** » Wed Aug 12, 2009 10:52 am

I would go for block or guard. If it gets a second skill take side step.

ulvardar · Post by **ulvardar** » Wed Aug 12, 2009 10:58 am

Nah, i don't agree.

Doubles for a gobbo. Ok, he will still have St. 2, so +1 in armour or similar is not important, he will die sooner or later.

I would take Dauntless. Enter cage 3+ with dodge, then use Dauntless, and then your "sooo secure" orc blitzer carrying the ball will receive a 1 dice blitz, with 30% chances of defender down/defender stumbles (and letting ball free).

And that's really a great opportunity for a weak team like gobbos. Specially if your SW are sent off.

If the ballcarrier has dodge, your chances are fewer, but hey... you can try, specially if accepting a 'both down' is ok for you.

And... if the ballcarrier has no block or dodge... (i'm considering a werewolf, hobgoblin, bullcentaur, beastman, pro elf... in fact, a lot of players) and you accept both down... wow, 50% of a free ball!!!

So why wasting time with HMP or similar? Attack your enemy!

cyagen · Post by **cyagen** » Wed Aug 12, 2009 11:24 am

Actually, Wrestle with a re-roll gives you better chances of freeing the ball than Dauntless, do not forget to factor in the assists and the chances of rolling 3 or less.

With wrestle your odds are much better of messing up the plans of your opponents, which is what gobos are about.

Digger Goreman · Post by **Digger Goreman** » Wed Aug 12, 2009 12:00 pm

You have diving catch... HAIL MARY! Only fails on a 1... (or would that be a 1 & 2 for being stunty?).... Also keeps the ball deep in the other half (punt) when necessary....

Carnis · Post by **Carnis** » Wed Aug 12, 2009 12:13 pm

Dirty player is not off the list. I quite like the LRB5 fouling rules, even use fouling with my dark elves (without a DP there, though, and only on the 2nd half).

Some to consider:
+MA: Throwable pogoer, without leap. Not a favourite.
+AV: Does nothing on your own turns, but you lose 3/5th of a bribe. Not a favourite especially as block/wrestle add about the same in survivability.
Block: Survivability, adds you a secure "damage" blitzer (your trolls don't *really* blitz, do they?). Makes for a good ballcarry (especially, with sidestep) Downsides: Nearly useless versus cages, you may be forced to dodge if you double bothdown, and your target has block..
Wrestle: Survivability, adds a secure "prevent damage" blitzer (you can blitz, to free your other tied down gobboes, failing with only double skulls, even a both down will free your "friend"). Another positive is you can sometimes wrestle down the ballcarry, if you can isolate him or he has S2 (lizardmen/flings/sometimes ogres). Another plus is, it combines nicely with three other goblin "marker" skills: Diving tackle (oppo must target you), Sidestep (oppo must POW you) and Jump up (After wrestle, you're still in the game) Downsides: Doesn't do damage, you're gonna take it so need to dish as much back, a block/jugger blitzer will be a nightmare to face with a lot of wrestle.
Sure Hands: Reliability, pickup almost guaranteed + you're secure against strip ball. Another positive is, if you knock the ball loose, you can usually pick it up in TZs. Downsides: Any proper team will just 2die you anyway with block/pow taking you down AND the ball. Not one of my favourites on a S2 player.. Plus means most of your TDs will go to this player.
Guard: Prevents damage, plus gives you a player who can run into a cage, lend an assist and let your non-skilled goblin hit the ballcarrier (2x 3+ dodge required, not hard versus non-tacklers). Combines nicely with sidestep. Downsides: The guard is going to be shortlived, he'll be purposefully putting himself in trouble. Guard alone will not make your own turns more reliable, and with S2 he will hardly ever prevent a blitz..
Dirty Player: 50k bribes and a fouling goblin are a match made in heaven. Combines later with sneaky git for fouling without assists. Downsides: Your looney is a better DP-fouler (you don't need to waste a bribe on him, he'll be out anyway + he gets a free +3 on the armor).
Strip/dauntless: 2 Skills, but with same gameplay role (blitz ballcarry, to free the ball), with the same weakness as well: Strip is countered with surehands (most runners/throwers have), dauntless is countered with 1 guard (most teams have). Dont see many strenghts with these choices, due to restricted access for the goblin and relatively easy counterability.
Hail Mary Pass: Final contestant, strenghts: combines nicely with stealing the ball, and can be a killer in defence vs slower teams. Problem, not really reliable against faster teams. And usually getting the ball is harder than securing the ball, so this does not strike me as a killer double.

I would probably pick Wrestle on the first 3 goblin-doubles (if you ever get them) followed with diving tackle/ss, barring the trolls who I would go block on the first skill, and dodge on the second skill (followed with break tackle) or tackle (followed with multiple block). After 2-3 wrestles, I would get a DP, then 1 Block, 1 Sure Hands, more Wrestle and eventually a 2nd DP.

I'd focus my defence entirely on blitzing the cage-corner and fouling him (and tieing cage-corners with SF/guard trolls, ofc), and if opportunity arises marking the ballcarrier with 2x DT/Wrestle gobboes. If a goblin doesn't double (or +AG/+ST) within the first 3 skills, I would sack them.

Earlier, when both the pogos were still a secret weapon you could get two DPs in the starting roster, but now you have to "waste" a double on it. You won't be disappointed though, works about 50% of the time (40-58% with 2-4 assists, or alone if using a DP-chainsaw), while you get to "waste" a bribe about 30% of the time, meaning you get about 1,5 removed players (half of whom, CASd) per half per bribe/dp. Bargain price I would say, considering 2 bribes and 2 dps (1 per half) means 3 removed players each half and 3 casualties per game (assuming you get to foul ~6 times with assists down to about AV3-5, which requires a bit of effort but is not at all impossible, especially if you start out strong with 1-2 KOs in the first fouls/troll blocks). I strongly support using bribes for preventing foul turnovers, rather than saving secret weapons anyway.

Darkson · Post by **Darkson** » Wed Aug 12, 2009 5:06 pm

I had a Guard Goblin on my last TT gobo team, and boy, was he hated by the rest of the league, especially when he later gained Side Step.
Just don't expect him to last to long (but then if you're playing goblins, that should be 2nd nature anyway).

Wanchor · Post by **Wanchor** » Wed Aug 12, 2009 6:20 pm

Carnis wrote:(your trolls don't *really* blitz, do they?).

My Block + Pro troll used to, anyway, after the chainsaw had already been sent off. Sigh.

I think I'll go with Guard on this one, hoping to get another doubles roll with another gobbo, who will then take Wrestle. At the very least, the Guard gobbo will be able to make Multiple Block more effective and helping to hold down the cage will be nice too.

Da_Great_MC · Post by **Da_Great_MC** » Wed Aug 12, 2009 7:18 pm

Guard +1

mattgslater · Post by **mattgslater** » Wed Aug 12, 2009 8:11 pm

Me too. Guard.