Skills and the order to take them in? - Orcs at Tr 115

[DeeTee]

Without wishing to jump on the bandwagon, I've been impressed with the advice given on a similar thread and if I may, i'd like to tap into it.

I'm a moderatley experienced coach at best and will be attenidng a TR115 'LRB 6' tourney in a few weeks. The rule set allows for 6 skills, all of which are chosen before game 1.

Skills 2 and 5 are doubles.

My team consists of:
4 Blitzers
4 BOBs
1 Thrower
1 Lineorc
1Troll
1 Ugroth Bulgrot (Chainsaw Star Player)
3 RR

I appreciate the Chainsaw is a huge liability but I fancy giving it a go for fun and perhaps more importantly it took a lot of work making the figure.

I'm not a fan of gobbo's as I'm a relative Orc Purest (I figure that a Troll's accepetable to the Orcy mindset as at least he's bigger and stronger).

Rightly or wrongly i'm sticking with this team selection. My plea for help is with the skills:

My intention is to take the following skills in this order:
1- Thrower (Block) - this is with a view to protecting him as a ball carrier
2 - Troll (Block) - to strengthen my LOS and increase overall bash potential
3 - BOB ( Guard) - to strengthen my LOS and use in a cage
4 - Blitzer (Tackle) - LRB 6 at TR115 should attract a lot of fast, agile teams - hopefully this will help against them
5 - Blitzer (Dodge) - Good opportunity to try a blodger really
6 - BOB (Block) - bit of an experiment to increase bash potential

Any comments or suggestions will be very gratefully received team.

Many thanks in anticipation.

Danny

[PubBowler]

You've got a couple of doubles in there, and at funny times.
Is that part of the rule set.

I favour multiple Guard and would Guard up all BOBs as a priority.

I'd also not advise Tackle as it's useless against half the teams you'll play.
Frenzy is a better bet, as long as you can handle the posistioning.

[mattgslater]

I like the roster. While I really like Guard BOBs, I wouldn't take one in this format until at least #3, as you're not going to lack for strength up the middle against anyone with 2 or fewer skills (except Khemri).

I'd try to open with a gimmick skill and an anti-gimmick skill. I agree that Frenzy is a good substitute for Tackle, and has more applications. Block on the Troll is solid, but you'll see a lot of Frenzy in this format, so if you don't take positioning skills you'll give up a lot of wide zone action, which is not good for Orcs. Skill #2 is a double, needs to be a positioning skill, and should be hard to negate. Of the two top doubles skills for an Orc Blitzer, Side Step fits the bill better. It also gives you a safe place to dump the Thrower on the backside of a defensive play.

After that, get some Guard, so you ensure that you continue to win the ST battles going forward. Skills 4-6 should really go to the line, to ensure you can keep the action in front of you. I like the Block Troll: he's very hard to ignore, and can hold down either side; a Stand Firm BOB will keep one-turners and other cheese at bay, while also preventing roll-ups off chainpushes.

1: Frenzy Blitzer (safety/o-line and cleanup).
2: Side Step Blitzer (R. corner/tight-end and cage-front).
3: Guard Blitzer (L. wide-zone backer/o-line and cage).
4: Guard BOB (noseguard/o-line and cleanup).
5: Block Troll (R or L end/o-line and cage).
6: Stand Firm BOB (R or L end/o-line and cage).

The Troll plays nose in the first round, but once you've got the SS Blitzer, invert the right side of your defense and move the Troll to the R end vs. speed, and the L end vs. bash.

Code: Select all

Number is the round the player skills in for reference.

Round 1:
-- -- -- --|-- -- B6 T5 B4 -- --|-- -- -- --
-- -- Z3 --|-- Bx -- -- -- Bx --|-- Z2-- --
-- Zx -- --|Th -- -- -- -- -- Lx|-- -- Z1 --

Once you've got the #2 skill:
Against speed:
-- -- -- --|-- -- B6 B4 T5 -- --|-- -- -- --
-- -- Z3 --|-- Bx -- -- -- -- Lx|-- -- Z2 --
-- Zx -- --|Z1 -- -- -- -- Bx --|-- Th -- --
Against bash:
-- -- -- --|-- -- T5 B4 B6 -- --|-- -- -- --
-- -- Z3 --|-- Bx -- -- -- -- Lx|-- -- Z2 --
-- Zx -- --|Z1 -- -- -- -- Bx --|-- Th -- --
Or some similar variant... you could swap the Blitzer 1 for the Thrower if you think the opponent will try to go in through the BOB safety.

[DeeTee]

PubBowler - it is indeed the ruleset. Skills 2 and 5 are doubles. Frenzy makes sense - I hadn't really considered the limitations of Tackle.

Mattgslater - I like what you say here. Going with your advice who would you envisage being the ball carrier? I was intending to use the Thrower with his Sure Hands and give him Block to protect him in this capacity.

What are your thoughts on the ball carrier?

[mattgslater]

Yeah, Block, Leader or Accurate on the Thrower is good for #4, especially if you're facing an elfy crowd. Otherwise, just scheme to protect him. Leader or Accurate gives you a passing game, so your carrier is any Blitzer or Lino and the Thrower can drop back to be protected by a BOB.

But I play kind of funny. My 8TTD is basically my 4TTD and four turns of camping. I prefer to grab five or six squares of backfield before I start to play the one-square game, and IMO it's worth a 3+ pass with Pass and a TRR to secure.

[DeeTee]

Matt, great advice and I'll be follwing it in the upcoming tourney.

One final question if I may. I have seen your lineup on various other threads and was just wondering.... you line your second row on the line immediatley behind the first (and the 3rd immediately behind the 2nd). Is there any benefit to dropping the second and third lines back one line - to create tackle zones for the teams that will inevitably dodge through?

Or are they so up front to allow for blitzing and capitalsie on turnovers?

Many thanks

Danny

[SillySod]

My team consists of:
4 Blitzers
4 BOBs
1 Thrower
1 Lineorc
1 Troll
1 Ugroth Bulgrot (Chainsaw Star Player)
3 RR

Decent looking roster. Could probably be slightly improved by ditching the chainsaw but that chainsaw model is far too cool to not use

Orcs thrive off of boring but powerful skills like block and guard. This is especially true in tournament play. Your chainsaw and troll should give you the crazy/unreliable bit of the team so you dont really need to add more craziness with the skillset. Actually you should probably be looking for sturdy, reliable skills to hold your team together and give the saw space to do its thing... the main downside of saws is the way they tend to splat if you cant protect them.

I'd go for...

1 - Blitzer (guard)
2 - Troll (block)
3 - Thrower (block)
4 - Blitzer (frenzy)
5 - Blitzer (dodge... or a black orc with diving tackle?)
6 - Black orc (block or guard)

Having a mobile guard is something of a must. This guy can plug gaps, lend assists, and protect an exposed ball or chainsaw where-ever you need him to. I'd block the troll up early because orcs dont have many other strong uses of doubles skills until you add multiple skills to the same player. A blocked up troll will be a great blocker, suddenly you can reliably hit people with mighty blow.

Getting the thrower block is a playstyle choice. It looks better than blocking up a black orc but I guess it depends on how confident you are keeping opponents away from the ball. Normally I'd consider leader but I think you have enough re-rolls not to bother.

The last three skills are the interest skills. I'd save frenzy until at least game three because you want a guard to pair it with and dont really want to use a double to get it. I'm guessing that you might not be over-familiar with using frenzy, dodge, or diving tackle so leaving them until the second half of the tournament means its less of a disaster if you dont warm to them. By that point you will have other skills to fall back on and also dont risk being stuck with a skill you dont like for a whole tournament.

The list would look all the stronger for having a rat ogre but sadly you said that part was non-negotiable

[Evil Git]

so it seems that the skills are chosen before the 1st game. in that case you'll want skills that will help you throughout the tournament for all teams rather than focusing on some.

the thing that orcs do well is bash, so i'd personally focus on that part of the game. 1st double is block on the troll. it's a no-brainer. you've then got a reliable big guy to control the centre of the line.

now you've got a second double roll to use, but there's not really another double skill that i really, really must have on this team to really administer some pain. diving tackle's nice but far from essential as well as side step. i wouldn't bother with either though. just go for 5 normal skills to fill up your skillset.

block on your thrower is a good skill if you're going to use him as your primary ball carrier, and personally i would. i know there's a lot of people who like to use blitzers as ball carriers and drop the thrower. i'm not one of them. sure hands is a great skill in tournaments especially when you have 4 very trr hungry pieces in blocking bob's. how many times do you roll both down with them things???

2 skills down and both block, 4 more to take.

the next 3 skills are a must on this team. you have to negate the other teams chances of hitting you so guard, guard and guard. yes it's boring but it's needed. 2 guarding bob's and 1 guarding blitzer. job done. i went for 2 bob's because then your guarders aren't going to be pushed around as easily as other teams would (like dwarfs str3 guarders).

now it's your choice for the last skill. block on a bob is nice. frenzy on a blitzer is nice or just use that double on something. personally i'd go with frenzy on the blitzer but it's entirely your choice in preference.

your line ups good too. i'd think about changing the chainsaw to a lino but that comes from me having a hard time in tournaments using these bloody things. they always work great for other people though

i'd also always kick if givent he option with this team. if it's a sloooow team you're up against then that chainsaw has loads of time to kick in and hurt that opposition. if it's skaven or elves then don't play him until your first drive and take your time getting that td.

your front line is in my opinion always going to be the troll and two lino's. use the bob's and the blitzers in tandems with the two guarding bob's on the wings areas and the guarding blitzer inside. a good spread of your guard there i think. also if the chainsaw is on the pitch then have him just behind your front line so he can easily get to either wing if needed of through the front line. the more options you give yourself the better your chances with this team. if i could sort out one of mr slaters diagrams then i'd show you exactly what my placings would be like but i can never get the code tag to work how i want it to lol.

sorry this is a really long post but it seems i got carried away with talking about this. hopefully it wasn't too boring for you.

[Darkson]

If this is for the Exiles Bowl, and they've lifted the rules 100% from ARBBL ( ), then you don't have to take a doubles skill, and I'd probably take either Guard on another Blitzer, or Block on a BOB.

If for what ever reason those strange Poole lot have decided you must take a a double, try Sneaky git on the lineman - you never know, someone might be stupid enough to try and take the lino out, leaving your better players to do their thing.

[Joemanji]

My intention is to take the following skills in this order:
1- Thrower (Block) - this is with a view to protecting him as a ball carrier
2 - Troll (Block) - to strengthen my LOS and increase overall bash potential
3 - BOB ( Guard) - to strengthen my LOS and use in a cage
4 - Blitzer (Tackle) - LRB 6 at TR115 should attract a lot of fast, agile teams - hopefully this will help against them
5 - Blitzer (Dodge) - Good opportunity to try a blodger really
6 - BOB (Block) - bit of an experiment to increase bash potential

Accepting your roster, if you really want your Chainsaw to work you need some Guard in there as soon as possible. If you get some Guard around the chainsaw, then even if he fails to break AV, it is still unlikely your opponent will be able to knock him down. Otherwise he is just a target.

I am not a fan of Block on a Thrower at all. If you want a Block-ing ball carrier, give a blitzer Sure Hands. That way you get the +1 MA and +1 AV too. You lose Pass, but who were you going to pass to anyway? Passing is a desperation play, and you should never plan for those.

Block on the Troll is a must 2nd skill. It is just such a leap in effectiveness. He goes from liability to terror.

Tackle is unneccessary IMO. If you are worried about blodgers take Frenzy as mentioned above. It means you can bunch the play away from the sidelines too, passively creating more dodge rolls for your opponent.

Side Step is just a nonsense on tournament Orcs. There is no way it is better than Guard or Block on a black orc.

I would go:

Guard BOB
Block Troll
Guard BOB
Guard BOB
Block BOB (one is nice, ignore the double)
Frenzy Blitzer

[mattgslater]

Matt, great advice and I'll be follwing it in the upcoming tourney.

One final question if I may. I have seen your lineup on various other threads and was just wondering.... you line your second row on the line immediatley behind the first (and the 3rd immediately behind the 2nd). Is there any benefit to dropping the second and third lines back one line - to create tackle zones for the teams that will inevitably dodge through?

Or are they so up front to allow for blitzing and capitalsie on turnovers?

Many thanks

Danny

The benefits to setting up your backers one square behind the LOS are 1) you get an extra square of penetration on the rush, and 2) it's that much harder to force an opening between the LOS and the inside protection. The key benefits to setting up two squares behind LOS are 1) you don't get hosed on the 1/9 chance of a Quick Snap, and 2) it's much harder to chain-push your line into giving up blocks on linebackers or 1TTDs. Which is better? I think it's situational, but there's a recent thread on just this subject, though it's geared around ST3 d-lines.

With a heavy-duty Orc line, I'm not worried about chainpushes for extra blocks against teams that don't have +ST Frenzy players (you won't see Grab in this format, but watch out for Norse, CDs and Skaven with ROs; Dwarfs can do it too, but by the time they get enough Guard to try you'll have your later skills, which include a fix). I'm also not too concerned about Quick Snaps: you can lose a drive that way, but it's highly unlikely (1/9 for the QS, and sometimes QS doesn't help or the offense's turn goes badly anyway), and if it happens your high AV and ST says that the outcome will probably just be a quick score (either that or you get QuickSnapped and AV9 fails you... chalk that one up to Nuffle and shrug). So I'd set up my Orky "back 8" one square back of scrimmage against almost all teams, but I can't say that's a categorical thing.

[PubBowler]

Side Step is just a nonsense on tournament Orcs. There is no way it is better than Guard or Block on a black orc.

Agreed

[DeeTee]

Guys,

I'm really very grateful for all your advice. I've certainly got a lot to think about.

Evil Git - please don't apologise. Totally not bored and very much appreciating the time you've taken to share your thoughts on the topic

SillySod - Rat Ogres - wrong/ 'Tee' - that's ceetee's bag!!!!!!

Darkson - It is indeed the Exiles!

Cheers again folks.

Really chuffed with all the responses so far.

Danny

[mattgslater]

Side Step is just a nonsense on tournament Orcs. There is no way it is better than Guard or Block on a black orc

It's about real estate: the three laws of BB are Scheme, Scheme and Scheme. Black Orcs are too slow to pressure the ball, man the front of the cage, or play the far corner, no matter what you give them. But they also benefit from the Baby Wildebeest Syndrome: An unskilled Black Orc can do more-or-less whatever you'd want a skilled Black Orc for. But the wide zones, the weak spots, are where Blitzers shine. So skill a couple Blitzers before you skill the BOBs. Yes, the BOBs do suck up TRRs, but really that's not a big deal given that they give you total dominance over the interior of the field right from the get-go.

I find that if I have one Side Step Blitzer and a full suite of BOBs plus Troll, I can pretty much force my opponent into one specific offense. Unless my opponent is willing to commit a lineman to dancing with a Side Stepper on the weak sideline (usually resulting in a crowd-push), the Side Stepper generally ends up unoccupied on the backside of the play. Any lapse in ball security, and this fellow is terrifying. Even if the offensive play goes right, this player, a BOB and another guy (anybody) can pretty much lock out all credible passing action off the weak side, or hold the outer edge of the cage in place, to funnel it into the Troll and the other BOBs.

Offensively, a fast player with a positioning skill is hugely valuable. You can use him to pin down Slayers and other problem blitzers, eat space behind the D-line to expand your caging options, or hold the front corner of a sideline cage. If you don't like the lie of the ball or if it's pouring rain (or your Thrower is hurt), you can drop him in front of the ball before the rest of your sequence so your drive is less dependent on your pickup attempt. And in this format, Grab is nonexistent, while a Dodge player still has to think about Tackle.

If you're really into ensuring the dominance of your line, maybe skill a BOB first, and then go to the Blitzers. I could see this:
1) BOB with Guard
2) Blitzer with Side Step
3) Blitzer with Guard
4) Blitzer with Frenzy
5) Troll with Block
6) Lots of options, frankly. I like BOB with Stand Firm, but a Blitzer with Stand Firm, a BOB with Block or Guard, or a Thrower with Block, Leader or Accurate would all be good.

[Joemanji]

Yes but ... you need your players for actual turns, not just the defensive setup. Like the half where you receive for example. You have 8 whole turns there (plus your opponent's 8 turns) where Block or Guard will be of vastly more value than Side Step. Heck, a lot of teams won't even try to hit you.

If your plan works, or even if it doesn't, you should only setup for defence with meaning once per game. If not, it means you have scored twice (a good thing) or scored early (a mistake).

You are advocating Side Step for the 1 turn after your opponent receives (plus some incidentals). I am advocating Block/Guard for the 31 other turns of the game. Best case scenario you get to use SS 16 times, and that is highly unlikely. I could easily use Guard or Block more than 16 times in a game.

I'm not saying Side Step isn't a great skill. It is, in leagues especially. But in tournaments it just doesn't compare to the Block and Guard. Btw, how many tournaments have you been to Matt?

The real choice here is Side Step on a Blitzer or Block on a Troll game 2. There is no way anything is better than Block on a Troll. I'd rather have Block on that there Troll than anything on any other player on the team, including +1 ST or +1 AG. It is the single best advance the team as a whole could get.