Norse team starting

[kk]

I've got some Blood Bowl experience, but that is mostly several years ago. Now I'm starting in a league with LRB5+ rules and going to pick Norse team which seems to have changed a lot since I last played them.

We have 1100k reserved for the team creation and the suggested line-up seems to be this:
6 Linemen
1 Thrower
2 Runners
2 Berserkers
1 Ulfwerener
1 Snow Troll
2 Rerolls
0 FF

However, I've read much positive things about Ulfwereners and would like to take both to my starting team. Also only 2 rerolls worry me. So I came up with an idea of a team like this:
Norse
6 Linemen
1 Runner
1 Berserker
2 Ulfwereners
1 Snow Troll
4 Rerolls
2 FF

Is there some potential flaw in my team as it seems to have the elements I need. I don't see throwers that useful as I rarely pass the ball anyway. The idea would be to getting skills to Ulfwereners and Troll fast and 4 rerolls should be enough to overcome skulls, also Loner sometimes.

The development would be to first buy an apothecary and then a single reserve player. Runners seem nice but expensive. Berserkers are of course good, but that would be fifth player with Frenzy so it is not that crucial.

Also it seems that most suggestions tell to skip FF and bank money. Still FAME modifier isn't that bad to have I think. Also we are playing a league of about 10 games so there isn't too much time to wait for FF to grow.

Any opinions would be nice!

[Carnis]

Norse
6 Linemen
1 Runner
1 Berserker
2 Ulfwereners
1 Snow Troll
4 Rerolls
2 FF

Is there some potential flaw in my team as it seems to have the elements I need. I don't see throwers that useful as I rarely pass the ball anyway. The idea would be to getting skills to Ulfwereners and Troll fast and 4 rerolls should be enough to overcome skulls, also Loner sometimes.

Any opinions would be nice!

The flaw is, you start with 11 on a 1.1k starting league and no apothecary. With norse you need to expect losses before the 2nd half. I play my norse at 14, and some guy suggested the size of a team to be 21- average AV = 14 for norse. Starting with 11 also means you cannot foul.

I'd go:
8 Linemen 400k
1 Zerker 90k
2 Ulfs 220k
1 Troll 140k
Apothecary
3 rerolls
1080k, 12 players + apoth.

Either upgrade a liner to a thrower, or get 2 FF, OR coach + cheer.

The merit of the thrower is in the cheaper reroll, for a Block/Pass/Leader thrower you pay 90k, which is a 20k discount compared to just having the reroll + a liner. I can see why a lot of players would skip that.

You need to decide who is your ballcarrier, you have three options:
1) Lineman 50k Block -> sure hands
2) Thrower 70k Block, Pass -> surehands
3) Runner 90k +MA/Block/Dauntless -> Surehands+Dodge+SS

Either way, you can play game1 without your primary ballcarrier, developing your blitzers (for MB/Piling on or Guard/Standfirm) is the priority early regardless.

[voyagers_uk]

I appreciate that some have crazy Ulf-love on this forum and I too have a soft spot for ST4 Frenzy players.

However I found that ignoring the Ulf's until 4-5 matches in and going full Beserker/Runner allows more flexibility early on. Dauntless should not be overlooked especially when teamed with Block and MA7

[purdindas]

The first roster only has 2 rerolls so I immediately wrote it off. Ther 2nd is better but you really should start with 2 beserkers and 2 runners. Ulf's have potential but they need to get some spp's under there belt so they can get block/wrestle. Without these essentail blocking skills they are just turnover machine's. Frenzy without block is a terrible combination.

At TV 100 I wouldn't take any Ulf's but at TV 110 I might take 1. Make sure you use him late in your turns though cos' he's guaranteed to mess you up.

[kk]

Carnis has a valid point that my list with only 11 players and no apothecary is a gamble. Maybe I could call it high risk - high reward team as it at least should develop pretty fast. The other possibilty is to be completely trashed by some team like orcs in the first game, but our league allows you to restart. Also I could use journeymen in case I lose players I think.

The idea behind 2 Ulfs and a troll is to maximize the strenght potential. Not many are able to handle that line easily as they also have that Frenzy. I also chose 4 rerolls so that I can help my Ulfs not to give that many turnovers.

I'll probably need to wait and see who am I playing against the first 1-2 games. Against some non-bash team I think I'll have a good chance to go without replacement players.

[Carnis]

The first roster only has 2 rerolls so I immediately wrote it off. Ther 2nd is better but you really should start with 2 beserkers and 2 runners. Ulf's have potential but they need to get some spp's under there belt so they can get block/wrestle. Without these essentail blocking skills they are just turnover machine's. Frenzy without block is a terrible combination.

Heh. Could not disagree more.

Ulfs create a massive crowdpush threat just by standing next to players within 3 squares of the sideline.
Ulfs have AV8.
The Ulf as a "massive turnover machine":
With a reroll an ulfwerener has the super high turnover risk of about 2% with a meager 21% chance of burning a reroll.
The math:

Code: Select all

(1-8/9*8/9 = chance of of needing a reroll ~21%
(1-8/9*8/9)*1/9 = chance of failing the reroll ~2%

This is a simplification, in actuality the odd are a lot less, as the majority of blocks will not create a pushback, but will instead create a POW or a Push/POW which will end the frenzy. If you take your blockless blocks at the end of turn it's really not a big deal. And at the end of turn, you can often take a both down without spending a reroll, as long as your opponent does not have block.

If you take these figures into a gaming example, an ulf without block (who has taken MB&piling on instead) has about 20 times bigger chance of removing an opposing AV7 player, than causing a turnover, whilst having about twice as good a chance to remove the opposing player, than "waste" a reroll attempting it.

I'd love to hear you justify the two runners though. Have not come up with any role for the runners, bar blocking assistless black orcs with an assist (get 2die with a 2+ dauntless check, and only risk a 1die block failing), or running with the ball instead of the thrower. The thrower has pass though, so he's about as good at it as the runner with his MA7.

[voyagers_uk]

2 runners are fairly easy to justify

+MA - needed against a lot of teams

Dauntless - needed against Black Orcs, anyone with a ST boost or Bull Centaurs, who are sprinting away with the ball.

Basically they are the Fullback/Linebacker role. They lead the way on offence and have the teams back on defence.

Ulf's are the big clumsy cousins of the berserkers and after they gain Block are reliable at the point of attack. taking a both down at any point with a ST piece is unadvisable imo.

[Carnis]

Basically they are the Fullback/Linebacker role. They lead the way on offence and have the teams back on defence.

In my team, the ulfs have this role. A S4 with frenzy+assist is more reliable than a S3 with block/dauntless+assist in this role. I guess you can make the runner try fill the role of the ulfwerener, and it will make do. It won't ever be as good though.

Bullcentaur ballcarriers are a rare example, where MA7 and dauntless might combo well. Even there the wrestling/frenzying ulf reigns supreme by cancelling block & getting a free reroll on a failed block.

[voyagers_uk]

In my team, the ulfs have this role. A S4 with frenzy+assist is more reliable than a S3 with block/dauntless+assist in this role. I guess you can make the runner try fill the role of the ulfwerener, and it will make do. It won't ever be as good though.

Bullcentaur ballcarriers are a rare example, where MA7 and dauntless might combo well. Even there the wrestling/frenzying ulf reigns supreme by cancelling block & getting a free reroll on a failed block.

If we lived and died by statistics then I might agree, however this game is not as simple as that (which in turn is part of it's charm).

S4 + Frenzy is all very well but without Block it is too easy to get out of place and be making a second block with only 1 dice....

I would rather be making a 1 die block with Block/Dauntless.

I do love the Ulf's for the role you suggest and the Runners take on a more tactical/surgical strike role at that point. However on a start up I would go with skills over stats every time.

[purdindas]

American football terms aside.

The runners are a great ball handler. MA 7 allows you to get to the ball quiker and also get it up the pitch quicker by running with it. Give him sure hands then dodge and he's the best ball carrier youv'e got. I wouldn't touch throwers with a barge-pole unless your looking for a cheap leader re-roll. Because let's face it, you really want to be playing a running game with Norse and the only reason they have a thrower is so that someone can get access to passing skills. Dauntless is a really useful skill on a ball carrier also as it allows him to blitz out of the tackle zones of higher strength players.

When on defence the runner is also increadibly useful as a sweeper or what might be called a safety. Mv 7 means he can sit in the back field ready to mop-up any catchers/runners breaking through your line. He is infact very versatile and just plain awesome!

Carnis I already know your a massive fan of Ulf's but I disagree with your philosophy. They can be good but they absolutely need block/wrestle. Without these they are causing you to use re-rolls which you might want to save for something more important. If they were guaranteed to skill up fairly quickly then I would definetely invest in them more often but they don't in my experience. Because they are not reliable blockers I tend to hit with them late in the turn or not at all. By that time theirs not much left to hit usually. So they don't get spp's from casualties and with Ag 2 they arn't going to get SPP's from any other sources except MVP which is random. Frenzy is a mixed blessing. It's good for getting extra hits at players but remember that you have to take the 2nd block. It's a 1/9 chance of a turnover if you don't have block and if you don't knock him over then thats another 1/9.

The Troll is different. He has claws which makes him worth taking. ALWAYS use him last if you can though.

In my current Norse team I have played 7 games and my Ulf still has no SPP's. You'll probably say that I'm doing something wrong but I don't think so as I havn't lost any of those 7 games. I am getting frustrated at his lack of spp's and don't think I would take an Ulf in the future.

If your more reckless than me and have a bit more patience for developing this 'weak' player then maybe you can use him to better effect than I but, I'd rather play it safe and save my re-rolls for blocks on my opponents ball carrier, GFI's or double skulls.

[Carnis]

Give him sure hands then dodge and he's the best ball carrier youv'e got. I wouldn't touch throwers with a barge-pole unless your looking for a cheap leader re-roll.

Carnis I already know your a massive fan of Ulf's but I disagree with your philosophy. They can be good but they absolutely need block/wrestle. Without these they are causing you to use re-rolls which you might want to save for something more important. If they were guaranteed to skill up fairly quickly then I would definetely invest in them more often but they don't in my experience. Because they are not reliable blockers I tend to hit with them late in the turn or not at all. By that time theirs not much left to hit usually. So they don't get spp's from casualties and with Ag 2 they arn't going to get SPP's from any other sources except MVP which is random.

The Troll is different. He has claws which makes him worth taking. ALWAYS use him last if you can though.

In my current Norse team I have played 7 games and my Ulf still has no SPP's. You'll probably say that I'm doing something wrong but I don't think so as I havn't lost any of those 7 games. I am getting frustrated at his lack of spp's and don't think I would take an Ulf in the future.

The troll is an ulf with claws and loner. I feel your pain about leveling an ulf. I've currently played 14 games with my norse, and it took me no less than 12 games to get a skill on the 2nd ulf (1 CAS & MVP). And he has absolutely no chance of ever receiving a 2nd skill, as he took wrestle. The other ulf I leveld up by handing off 4+ TDs in games that I had total control over, and later on he has made his share of CAS with MB+Frenzy. The troll took another 2 games (14 in total), so I do see them both more or less the same for leveling, actually.

The runner can be a great ballcarrier, there's no question about it. I feel the throwing option together with the leader reroll justifies a thrower ballcarrier. Especially, as you can combine the MA of the runner with the throwing option, have a ball loose after a blitz -> Move the thrower to the square & take a risky 3+ with surehands pickup + 3+ with pass quick pass & 3+ catch with team reroll to the runner.

I guess our philosophy is different in that I consider a rookie Ulf a great player (although too expensive), where as you feel he needs the skills. I'm fairly sure it has to do with crowdpushing. I usually play the first 3 turns of a drive only for crowdpushing opportunities or mb&piling on blitzes. If it succeeds I've won the drive basicly.

Rerolls, I try not use any. I do usually end up using all of them in blocks and GFIs, though.

[kk]

It seems that I'm playing against Humans first. Maybe making a small adjustment to my team and including apothecary at the start. Another Ulf has to give room, but I'll be banking 30k and hoping to get him on table soon. Hopefully this is a good compromise.

7 Linemen
1 Berserker
1 Runner
1 Ulfwerener
1 Snow Troll
4 Rerolls
1 Apothecary
30k banked

[mattgslater]

2 runners are fairly easy to justify

+MA - needed against a lot of teams

Dauntless - needed against Black Orcs, anyone with a ST boost or Bull Centaurs, who are sprinting away with the ball.

Basically they are the Fullback/Linebacker role. They lead the way on offence and have the teams back on defence.

Ulf's are the big clumsy cousins of the berserkers and after they gain Block are reliable at the point of attack. taking a both down at any point with a ST piece is unadvisable imo.

I like all of this. I have to also agree with Carnis that the unreliability of the Ulf is grossly overrated. Yeah, they're best with a TRR, but if you just game to use them at end-of-turn, match them up on Block players, and don't let them give up assists, they're not so bad. You do have to game to improve them... but unlike a Snow Troll, you can throw a 3+ to an Ulf with a Thrower on 2/3 net odds if you have a TRR (not counting pickup), and if he doesn't catch it, you know you have an Ulf on the ball. He can pick up or take a handoff on 3/4 odds with a TRR too (ask any Chaos Dwarf coach), so if you really mean it you can score with him twice.

Why 4 TRRs and 1 Ulf over 3 TRRs and 2 Ulfs? Also, I'd take 2 Runners for sure. Dodge Runners save lives by marking and eliminating BOBs, Big Guys, and other +ST pieces, so your Ulfs can focus on the Blitzer-types. You really don't need Berserkers immediately if you have 2 Ulfs and 2 Runners: just make sure to buy one after you earn 60k (or start a Thrower and only 10k banked... this team would have a very good offense once the Thrower gets SH and Accurate and you get at least two guys for the bench). You could also take only one Ulf and 3 TRRs, and then take 2 each Runners and Berserkers with only 10k in the bank.

[GreedySmurf]

Gotta say I love the Ulf's. Even if they are slow to skill up. I've finally got two with Block, Guard and MB on my team.

Personally I've got a thrower on my team, and fully stand by having one as a genuine thrower rather than a cheap reroll. In fact I haven't even given him Leader yet (5 skills in) He adds another dimension to the attacking options, my opposition can't simply set up to guard against a running play. And he lets me set up my runners close to the LoS to set up for an easy two turn TD when required.

My runners, are definitely my primary ball carriers. They easily become Blodgers, which is essentail in a ball carrier IMO, and with Sure hands & Side Step, they are lethal. Mine are however dual roll - playing as sweepers in defense. Diving Tackle makes them excellent at this job. (When they've already got Bodge & Side Step - very annoying)

Any starting roster for a Norse team for me must have an Apoth. The AV7 just makes you too vulnerable not to take one.

The big thing with a starting Norse team against other starting teams, take advantage of the Block, Don't be afraid to throw those one dice blocks. (After you've done the important stuff of course.)

I for one love having five frenzy players on the pitch. The opposition is focred to leave space on the sideline, and has to be careful about all blocks in the widezone in case they get too close to the sidelines.

[Jural]

Ulfs are also very fun!

The new Norse roster is very fun with the Ulfs and Snow Troll. It plays unlike any other roster, and I love those pieces.

Statistically the best choice? Meh, it's not like these Ulfs are Loner and Wild Animal... they are close enough that you should field that which you think is fun.

Same argument for the Witch Elves on a Dark Elf team... sure you can go without... but isn't the team so much more fun with them?