Optimum size for a dwarf team?

Aliboon · Post by **Aliboon** » Mon Sep 28, 2009 5:32 pm

Question says it all really. I'm playing a dwarf team as an experiment in keeping TV down so want to run them lean (no deathroller, only 3 rerolls plus leader) and at the moment I've only 12 players (all the positionals plus 6 longbeards).

Now is it worth going up to 13/14 players, or should I stay at 12? My TV is around 140 and I've 300k in gold with nothing to spend it on.

What do yous think?

Post by **voyagers_uk** » Mon Sep 28, 2009 5:41 pm

I suppose your purpose in this is to stay lean but you face temptation now with the cash and I can only ask you what you really want to do. Playing a team for experimental reasons is ok but when does it stop? At what point do you think " stuff it, lets bloat on Guard and buy a death roller"?

Aliboon · Post by **Aliboon** » Mon Sep 28, 2009 5:57 pm

Mmm, I'm not sure when I'd think I was bloated with guard. I could quite happily have all the blockers with it and probably both blitzers too. I reckon a longbeard with guard and MB is as good as he's gonna get TV wise, maybe a scattering of standfirms would be worth it too though.

Not convinced by the deathroller though, i'd rather induce him when playing up.

Post by **Thadrin** » Mon Sep 28, 2009 6:50 pm

I like 13 for Dwarfs. I also like giving one of my Blockers Kick.

Joemanji · Post by **Joemanji** » Mon Sep 28, 2009 7:04 pm

I am amazed you can run 12 successfully. I have often seen Dwarfs take 4 casualties in a half even without MB etc. Dice do funny things. And what if you face a team with some Claw?

I don't think Inducements are ever worth keeping your TV down (with the possible exception of the Deathroller). I had a TV250 Orc team and was never troubled by Inducements.

Jural · Post by **Jural** » Mon Sep 28, 2009 7:15 pm

The Deathroller is probably a negative impact on TV, but it does help against some of the high strength sides.

For dwarves, I think 13 (14 with Deathroller) is optimum. Two extra reserves are handy, as you will rarely be down men.

As for not worrying about TV, I think some teams really shouldn't worry, as what they do no team can take away (Orcs, Dwarves, Norse, Chaos, Nurgle come to mind.)

But some other teams really are vulnerable to TV bloat, and vulnerable to inducements. These teams really need to be careful. I put Undead and Dark Elves in this category for certain.

Carnis · Post by **Carnis** » Mon Sep 28, 2009 7:26 pm

A lot of teams are VERY vulnernable to inducements. A coach in our league played a lossless streak with a 11 man dwarf roster. He spent the apoth on the first CAS no matter the result. He never faced claw though, but still keeping it lean can make a team really really ugly for many teams.

I'd go with 12 if you're willing to use the apoth on a BH, and 13 if not (but then you aren't lean anymore, but then you're playing dwarves..).

lerchey · Post by **lerchey** » Mon Sep 28, 2009 7:58 pm

Nice. I was going to post today to ask about Dwarves and TV. And here Aliboon has kind of done it for me. :)

So, I'll add this as a follow-on, hopefully to help both myself and Aliboon.

I've been playing a local league recently and took a Dwarf team. Started with both TS, both Blitzers, 1 Runner, 6 Blockers and 4 RR.

12 games later, I have suffered no long term losses (couple of MNGs and a few BHs), do have an Apoth, and bought my second runner and a 7th Blocker.

Last Saturday I won the Dungeon Bowl Cup. To participate, teams had to have a TV of at least 150. I was just over that.

Having won, I think I'm going to screw the TV and buy myself a couple of cheerleaders, a couple of assistant coaches and a deathroller.

That'll give me:

7 Blockers, 3 with Guard, 1 with Kick, and 3 within a point or two of their first Skills.
2 Blitzers, one with Dodge and Tackle, the other with Jump Up and Strip Ball.
2 Runners, both with Block, one with KoR, and one with Fend.
2 Troll Slayers, both with MB, and one with Stand Firm.
And the Deathroller.

TV will be 180. TVs of other teams seem to be anywhere from 15-16 to as low as 10.

Am I causing myself grief by giving the weaker teams 800,000 in inducements?? Not that I'm not going to do it, mind you, just curious as to how bad it could be. :)

Oh, and my current record is 8-2-2.

Digger Goreman · Post by **Digger Goreman** » Mon Sep 28, 2009 9:46 pm

Optimum size for a dwarf team?

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mattgslater · Post by **mattgslater** » Mon Sep 28, 2009 10:09 pm

8. 6.5 players' worth of Dwarfs, plus a Deathroller.

Whazzat? A Halfling counts like a Treeman? Oh, 13, plus a Deathroller.

Powerhausen · Post by **Powerhausen** » Mon Sep 28, 2009 10:53 pm

In my book, pretty much all teams should be 14 players. You might get casualties early, you might have injured players going into a match, you might get your dirty player sendt off. With a Dwarf team, you'll have the standard 11 players, a reserve, a dirty player you might get sendt off, and a Death Roller.

frogbear · Post by **frogbear** » Tue Sep 29, 2009 7:38 am

Digger Goreman wrote:Optimum size for a dwarf team?

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Yay! Someone got to it before I did

Post by **voyagers_uk** » Tue Sep 29, 2009 10:09 am

frogbear wrote:
Digger Goreman wrote:Optimum size for a dwarf team?

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Yay! Someone got to it before I did

required posts by certain individuals in this thread.

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Setomidor · Post by **Setomidor** » Tue Sep 29, 2009 1:42 pm

Apart from numbers, and in order to keep a lean team, you also have to consider WHICH players you have as reserves. For a majority of the teams I see no point in having players with any skills acting as reserves, and just another unskilled player will do just as well.

Let me give you an example: A developed Skaven team will probably have Linerats with some kind of survival skills such as Wrestle/Fend or Block/Dodge. Having three of those to put at the LoS is just fine, but what about the extra linerats you have sitting in the reserves box? A single dual-skill Linerat is worth 90k, and two unskilled ones are worth 100k. In this case, I would constantly fire whatever Linerats I think are not contributing enough to justify their teamvalue, and hope to roll some doubles or stat increases for the new guys when they happend to reach their first skill level.

This is equally true for teams like Lizardmen, Undead etc. If you have more than four or five Skinks with several skills, you should start kicking people and hope for +AG or doubles for the freshmen.

mattgslater · Post by **mattgslater** » Tue Sep 29, 2009 2:00 pm

I'm not sure I'm in agreement with you, Setomidor, about skills on the bench. On lino-heavy teams (as opposed to, say, Orcs*) I like to build 2-4 specialty players: a kicker who gets benched on offense, a quarterback/retriever who gets benched on defense, and possibly a player or two designed to deal with certain strategies, who may get benched for a rook or one-skill guy under other circumstances (say, a cover-man with Diving Tackle). But yeah, if you've got 14 players, you probably want to maintain at least one rookie. I mean, if you could take a 20k inducement to put a skill on your bench, wouldn't you do it? How convinced are you that you'll get through the entire game without having to substitute a rook for a skilled player? Enough that you'd pass on 20k TV for insurance, at no hard cost? Alternately, what's an all-purpose toolbox worth to you? 20k in lost handicap every game? It is to me. That's 1/5 of an Apoth or TRR or Bribe.

On a Dwarf team, I'd build a Runner for offense, and another one for all-purpose play, starting with the second improvement. Then I'd bench the offensive Runner in favor of an extra Blocker when I'm kicking. I'd try also to keep a rookie Blocker (Blocker #7 on a piece that doesn't farm well, so you really don't have any choice), and of course the Deathroller.

*Even Orcs. At full development, I field my Troll, 3 BOBs, my halfback/safety Thrower and all 4 Blitzers all the time: on D, I put in the other BOB and the defensive Goblin, and on O, I put in the QB-style Thrower and the receiver Goblin (unless I'm up against a very bashy team, then it's the BOB and Thrower, with both Gobs on the bench). The one lino (14th guy) mostly collects dust and fills in for any injured players, but if he skills he gets Block and now can seriously fill in for another guy.