To rat ogre or not to rat ogre?

Master Wang · Post by **Master Wang** » Fri Oct 09, 2009 2:46 pm

I have a fairly new Skaven team (4 games, 5 skills all on runners: Block; Block+Sidestep; Block; Wrestle). After a few deaths/SIs in first 2 games, I have a roster of 10 + 1 journeyman. I now have 180K saved and can either replace the lost thrower and 2 linemen bringing me to 13 and allowing me to start fouling, have a bench etc, or I can splash on the big guy. The team has 3RRs and an Apothecary so those aren't necessary and one lineman is close to skilling so hopefully I'll have Kick after the next game.

Overall I think my Skaven tactics are OK. Aggressive D, trying to stop cages form, stalling when possible on offense but otherwise getting lots of quick TDs, but I have almost no experience with the rat ogre.

Let's hear some pros and cons!

Baduk · Post by **Baduk** » Fri Oct 09, 2009 2:56 pm

I've read quite some topics here on the Rat Ogre and I think most people will advise you to skip it for now (take it as your 14th player?) or skip it at all.

He can be a real pain in the behind that ogre...

Harry Buddha Palm · Post by **Harry Buddha Palm** » Fri Oct 09, 2009 3:21 pm

I love my rat ogre. They suck at first when they have no skills, but once you get juggernaut or (even better) block on them, they become much safer to use. They can take opposing players out and can get in the way, which is great, but their main use is making holes in the opponents line. With frenzy, it's easy to push someone out of the way and make a hole for your team to run through. Plus, if you put him in a wing, most people won't want to put players in theirs for fear of being crowd surfed by your rat ogre, which makes another hole. Also, a lot of times your opponent will put half his team on the ogre in an attempt to take him out, which also makes a hole for the rest of your team to go through. Also, if you fail your wild animal roll, they still keep their tackle zones and prehensile tail is also nice for tripping up players.

That said, he is expensive and he does get knocked out a lot and you don't really NEED one. I say try one out and see if you like it.

rodders · Post by **rodders** » Fri Oct 09, 2009 3:29 pm

skip it for now he is your 14th man, as an expensive turn over machine you'll get for more mileage and wins out of ythe thrower and 2 line

funnyfingers · Post by **funnyfingers** » Fri Oct 09, 2009 5:14 pm

I think the earlier he can skill the better. If you get him later he will face tougher opponents. Also you don't even have to block with him unless you get 3 dice. If he fails Wild Animal, he still has a tackle zone.

Digger Goreman · Post by **Digger Goreman** » Fri Oct 09, 2009 5:22 pm

RO, RO, RO yer boat,
Blitzing up to steam,
Verily, verily, verily, verily,
Listen to coaches scream!!!!

Get that bad boy!!!!

mattgslater · Post by **mattgslater** » Fri Oct 09, 2009 6:01 pm

I say take him. Once you have an Apothecary, a Rat Ogre is a great player. Now you need to advance him, but it's not that hard, as he is MA6 and has Mighty Blow. Unlike a Snow Troll, you can actually score with a Rat Ogre; though it does take some thought and the right circumstances, 2 casualties are enough.

Warpstone · Post by **Warpstone** » Fri Oct 09, 2009 7:10 pm

The problem with the rat ogre is that his very presence will likely force you to play differently. Skaven need to score fast and defend even faster. If your thought process gets bogged down with "how can I get my ROgre into the action" or "how do I keep my ROgre from getting killed", then your team will suffer. Just like the Minotaur, a ROgre will often screw you because you can start thinking that he can pull of a key blitz for you... and then you roll a 1 on Wild animal.

The reason why this is worse for a Skaven team than a Chaos one is simple: one bad turnover/failed blitz with a Skaven team is much more catastrophic to your overall chance of staying in the game. Skaven failure in mid-turn likely means your players are still engaged and the ball is not secure/pressured enough to prevent your team from getting beaten to a pulp!

Really, I think the ROgre is only useful when you don't need him.

In other words, he provides a nice strength boost and a bit of leverage at a high-tv when you already have lots of skilled blitzing options available (ball-stripping GRs, etc) and lots of money in the bank to recover from a bad game.

P.S. another way to think about it: would you rather field a ROgre or have a wizard? At a 150kgp value, I would almost always opt for the Wizard for a 5/6 chance at decisively stopping/scoring a TD per game.

Smeborg · Post by **Smeborg** » Fri Oct 09, 2009 7:49 pm

I note that Skaven players tend to be very fond of their ROs. But for my part, I suggest the team is quite effective without them (very lean TV and greater reliability).

ROs are, however, quite effective once they get to (say) 3 skill advances, especially if they get doubles or stat increases. In our league we have a Block/Dodge/S-Firm/Guard RO, and another with Guard/S-Firm/+1ST. Both are something of a pain.

There is always a case to be made for taking a starting player with Frenzy (mainly in order to mess with your opponent's defensive set-up).

An abiding weakness of ROs is their AV8, with no T-Skull or Regen. This makes them the least protected of all Big Guys, and liable to inhabit the dugout.

If you are going to get one, get him now, to enable him to skill up. If you take one, play him "quietly" and conservatively at first.

Hope this helps.

Master Wang · Post by **Master Wang** » Sat Oct 10, 2009 1:20 pm

Thanks for the opinions guys. Might have to leave it to the flip of a coin...

Blammaham · Post by **Blammaham** » Sat Oct 10, 2009 2:49 pm

Just let your fig decide, by that I mean if its really cool nad you want to use it go for it.

I always use the big guys, not because they are stratigicly the best piece but I just like big guys! I take them for the fun of it.S.

mattgslater · Post by **mattgslater** » Sat Oct 10, 2009 2:57 pm

If you're not leaning toward the Rat Ogre, then consider not taking him. This from a guy who advised the Rat Ogre at the top. Rat Ogres are a coaching style thing. Some coaches find that the RO(US) is just too unreliable, while others really appreciate the assets he brings to the table (1TTD with a rookie GR, the best speedbump outside the BON/Kroxigor*, some real firepower).

If you're not looking to bring those particular advantages to your team, don't take a RO(US). Save 100k off your team value (yeah, 100k, not 150k, as if you didn't take the RO, you'd still take a lino... so Warpstone is only 2/3 right in his cost analysis), and you'll find yourself not having to change strategies midstream.

*Inside a Kroxigor, you move very slowly anyway.

Master Wang · Post by **Master Wang** » Sat Oct 10, 2009 11:01 pm

@ Blammaham

While I do have a rat ogre fig painted that I really like.

I'm not a big fan of Big Guys due to their unreliable nature. My humans' ogre and orcs' troll tend to be underused as their tacklezones are often more important than running the risk of doing anything with them. That said, they are a great distraction - especially the ogre. I don't know why, but some coaches go mad for knocking him down, even when he's away from the main area of play. But the rat ogre's lower AV mean this might not be so good for him.

However, I have a pro elf team that play a very similar game style to my skaven so maybe in the interest of variety I'll take him. The decision will probably get made later today. Thanks again for the imput everyone.

Harry Buddha Palm · Post by **Harry Buddha Palm** » Sat Oct 10, 2009 11:34 pm

The beauty of wild animal is that they don't lose their tackle zones when they fail. Failing a really stupid or bonehead can be disastrous due to the lost tackle zones, but failing a wild animal roll is usually just an annoyance. Usually.

Digger Goreman · Post by **Digger Goreman** » Sat Oct 10, 2009 11:54 pm

Agreed.... If Bonehead just caused an Ogre/Troll (RS) to "growl menacingly"... t'would not be half bad...!