How to use a Minotaur on a developed Chaos Dwarf team

[Joemanji]

I have a TV248 Chaos Dwarf team (Hashutischoo) with a rookie Minotaur. I have bought and sacked one more than once before, and having bought one again a few games ago I am once again wondering what he adds. He seems to be a total liability. He is likely to turnover or waste your Blitz action. He routinely gets stranded in no mans land and I essentially play the drive a man down. At high TV you usually need an early Blitz action and for it to work, which rules out the Minotaur. My current game is in the off season, and I vowed to use him as much as possible and try to get at least one CAS in case I get a lucky MVP. But he has failed his first 3 WAs (for Move actions) and is now on the opposite flank to the rest of my team. Even if I pass the next 2 WA rolls he'll still won't be contributing. I am playing a slayer Orc team with DP and 2 Bribes, so I really can't afford to risk a blitz with him, because if it fails my whole team will be hung out to dry. At high TVs this always seems the case ... one small error can let your opponent in, and an early turnover is more than a small error.

Has anyone got value from a Minotaur on a developed CD team? Did you just bite the bullet and use him every turn aggressively.

[Smurf]

I've got a chaos minotaur.

Touch backs - give it the ball.

Intercept attempts - make sure it has a go.

First skill - multi block, unless a double then take block,

[Joemanji]

Who are you?

[DoubleSkulls]

I'm tempted to agree that blitzing style BGs aren't very useful at higher TVs unless they've got lucky with doubles (Block/Claw etc).

The mino might work as a pin (guard, stand firm, tentacles on doubles) but for CDs, without Mutation access that isn't as easy or effective to develop as for other teams. So I'd probably ditch him.

[Storch]

I've always seen the Mino as a commitment on a CD team.

You have to have a good idea of where you want him to end up, you have to wait a long time for him to get there, and since most of getting there requires doubles or stat increases, you have to be willing to drop a player you have spent a long time developing because he just won't get there.

In the case of CDs, I think it would be terribly difficult (to say nothing of frustrating) to try to build him as a pin like Double Skulls suggested. I think he's either a blitzer or an open roster slot and, if he is a blitzer, you just have to accept him failing a lot.

That said, if he ever gets to three skills without a double, I would say sack him and start over. To be a blitzer, he really needs Block and Claws to be more than a waste of space on the field. If you get top three without at last one of those, I would start fresh and try again.

As for what he's good for at high TV, he can be a great way to deal with horrible big things. On my team, almost all the dwarves have Guard which means I can set up what my league has started referring to as the "rail gun" formation. Leave a hole in your offensive line flanked on either side by two dwarves with guard. The hole should be lined up with the player tyou really want to hurt. Start the Mino one square back from the hole. On your turn, block with the outer dwarves first to put 4 Guards next to the intended victim. Blitzing with the Mino is now two dice against almost anything and can be 3 dice is the target is S4 (though the second hit will only be 2 dice). From there he is in the thick of things making wild animal less of a problem.

[Asariel]

I can only speak from Chaos experience here but it somewhat mirrors the above. Early on the combination of ST5, Horns, MB and Frenzy makes him great when compared to what he's generally facing, add in the fact you have few skills/RRs and he's not always a huge amount less reliable that the rest of your team.

At high TV he's only useful if you have him developed, a rookie is just too much of a liability compared to the other options you have on the pitch and as such once my own dies/retires (unless I'm playing in an extremely Long Term league, like online, where I can struggle through to build another) I don't replace it.

I'd also agree that the holding role (e.g. Guard, Tents/Block, SF) is at least viable both because you have all that guard around and can just stick him in a ton of TZs and not worry if he fails and, as noted, losing your Blitz is somewhat more crucial and you'll have plenty of other options. (Break Tackle & Developed Bulls on a CD team.) Not sure the build for CDs holds though, basically any Chaos Player can make a decent blitz so you invariably have a lot of options, not so for Hobs and CD Blockers. With only Strength access it does seem to cry out for the BT, Jugger route but again why bother when you have better options? Giving up on block effectively means rarely hitting with him. (And to be as effective as the Chaos Mino in the holding role he needs about 3 doubles) Even then I've found he tends to get relegated to a walking TZ/nuisance throwing non-crucial blocks.

Saying all that I do know a lot of folks run them as killer-blitzers, even on Chaos teams. I think they're at least workable if you can put up with the frustration now and again. I'm overly conservative in my play so it doesn't suit me and when I tried to force it there were annoying TOs and often a stranded Mino. (Only time I do this is at torunies where Chaos need to go a bit high risk-reward to compete).

Big problem is back to your TV, skilling a Mino at that level is no easy task and he's certainly not worth his TV as a rookie, even then you need to ditch him without block eventually if going for a blitzer. Honestly, especially with BCs as an alternative blitzer, I wouldn't bother.

[atropabelladonna]

I have played your team in the MBBL. Adding a minotaur gives me a free wizard. I am all for it!

I feel Minotaurs are useless for a chaos dwarf team at any point of its development. They are okay for Chaos, and a bit better for Chaos Pact.

[DoubleSkulls]

I feel Minotaurs are useless for a chaos dwarf team at any point of its development.

Really? That seems a bit harsh. Later on more teams can either ignore him thanks to blodge or take him down and out too easily. But early on against teams ill equipped to deal with a S5 frenzy monster (and there are plenty) I can see him being fairly useful. Get lucky with doubles (Block/Claw or Tentacles) and he becomes a valuable asset IMO.

[Grumbledook]

Really? On a team with plenty of guard you should easily be getting 6 block dice on someone against a lot of opposing teams just from blocking.

With horns even easier when blitzing (ok you roll some 1s but that is easily accounted for). The team stays fairly close together so the Mino shouldn't really get left behind from lack of players to hit. Juggernaut as first skill makes up for lack of block.

I utilise them in the same way on a developed team as I do on a rookie one. Sure a developed team should have two good blitzing options with centuars, so there is a case for not replacing a Mino at high TV, but even just being used to tie up ST4 guys on other teams can come in handy.

[Carnis]

In our league a rookie (4 games) chaos pact team dropped a ~2million pro-elf team in the play-offs by giving random event +skill: "Piling on" to their minotaur. I think the value that comes from the minotaur is in "biting the bullet" and 6-die blitzing. Especially against lower AV teams.

Against blodge the mino has about 55% chance of success with his 6 dice (an approximation ~= (WA*~chance to KD) = 5/6*(1-5/6^6)). Thats about exactly the same as a Block Tackle player has against blodge (5/9). This makes him inferior to a CDB who has got MB/PO/Claw, but better than a CDB with just MB after one skill.

I'd be inclined to go Piling on, then Block, or Block, then piling on. If you don't roll doubles on the first 2, then you should cycle for a new mino imo, as you will never get block/tentacles. Naturally only reroll stuns, unless your opponent is AV7, or you're many players up.

Its very hard to skill a rookie mino in a team with multiple CLAW/MB CDBs, so it'll certainly be hard. If you can get him up to Block/Guard/Piling on, you should have a solid player who you can blitz into a fight, then 2die block on the following turns (using PO on stuns, and maybe even then only if you have MB available).

[PubBowler]

Not convinced by undeveloped Wild Animals on any high TV team and you already have some awesome killers there in your bulls and a Claw, Mb, Piling ON CD with Pro.

I'd ditch him now unless you plan to wait and see if he gets Block on his first roll.

[Porkus_Maximus]

In our league a rookie (4 games) chaos pact team dropped a ~2million pro-elf team in the play-offs by giving random event +skill: "Piling on" to their minotaur. I think the value that comes from the minotaur is in "biting the bullet" and 6-die blitzing. Especially against lower AV teams.

Sounds like to just got very lucky. I honestly can't imagine why anyone would want to give piling on to a player with wild animal, you're setting yourself up for all kinds of problems by doing that.

Sure, it's probably the fastest way to get cas SPP but you're putting the development of a single player ahead of the effectiveness of the whole team and that will come back to bite you sooner or later.

[Carnis]

Sounds like to just got very lucky. I honestly can't imagine why anyone would want to give piling on to a player with wild animal, you're setting yourself up for all kinds of problems by doing that.

Sure, it's probably the fastest way to get cas SPP but you're putting the development of a single player ahead of the effectiveness of the whole team and that will come back to bite you sooner or later.

You sure about that?

In our league it's considered good tradeoff, if you can get a KO or a CAS for a prone WA. He lost his player 100% certain, yours is up next turn with a 50% chance, up at the one after that with a 75% chance.. Or if in blitzrange, up with a 83% chance.

The prone WA is only a problem, if you rely on him for cage cornering or as your solo blitzer.. But if you got plenty of angles of attack (other MB/POs), you can let him think about standing up for a good 2-3 turns after a kill (or a KO). A single KD vs a AV7 player is a 58% chance of KO/CAS, that's higher than your chance of getting up next turn.. So on average rerolling armors vs AV7 is always beneficial, even with a wild animal.

[Decker_cky]

IMO...CD should never have a minotaur. They already have lots of guard players/blockers, and have the best blitzers in the game in their bull centaurs. While the minotaur could support either of those, it isn't great at it, and it's incredibly expensive. Minotaurs are an active player because of wild animal. If CD still had trolls, I'd take them on every team. But minos aren't a great fit and they take up a pile of TV. Better to keep a lean team without one.

[Joemanji]

4 failed WAs out of 4. This guy is going on the LoS and after that in the bin ...

Agreed, when CDs could have a Troll it was awesome. We should still have a choice of big guys on all teams.