Gutter Runner doubles on a skaven team

[Ullis]

I started a new skaven team in Cyanide's game. First game against dark elves was a 3-3 draw and one gutter runner skilled up, having scored twice. The roll was 1+1 and I was at a loss. I thought of skipping them since this was the first skill on the team, but then I thought that what good does one Block or Wrestle do on the team. After advising others to do the same I gave him Guard, the idea being that a super mobile guarder can be a huge asset on defence.

Second game was against a typical Chaos team (4 warriors and beastmen, 3 rerolls). I was up 2-0 after the chaos side conceded at the half time. The Guard gutter runner was excellent and the fact that he had no Block didn't really matter as no one on the Chaos team had it. It was so easy to get him where needed.

Now I face another dilemma as I got two new skills from the second game. Normal roll on a lino (Kick) and another set of doubles on another Gutter runner! What to do now? I'm thinking of Big Hand, but I really like more aggressive skills. Horns? Another Guard? Taking a second Guard on a GR would free the first Blitzer to skill up to start focusing on killing skills. And redundancy on the GR's is never a bad idea as they tend to get KO'd, injured and MNG'd.

[Carnis]

G, horns only if you get +ST first.

[DoubleSkulls]

Two heads is really really good since it means you can run straight through many defences on a 2+

[Smurf]

long legs, then leap!

[Joemanji]

I am a big fan of Two Heads.

You already have a Guard, which is another option. Big Hand can be sweet, though to be honest Sure Hands performs a similar function and is a G skill. Nerves of Skill is also an option for those hand off plays, I took it once I found it useful. I wouldn't take Horns as dauntless performs the same function, and although it requires a 2+ roll it can be used on blocks too.

[Cybertroll]

Two Gutter Runner with Guard could be a very interesting situation... especially because you get it in the beginning...
If you have some improvements in AG or two-heads, I suggest Horns for a GR (and wrestle, and strip ball)... but two Guards with Mov9 could be really funny (be careful to score sometimes with them, I usually found very difficult for a Guard to take subsequents skills...)

[Ullis]

Thanks for the replies. Here are my subsequent thoughts:

1. Two Heads. Will I gain enough mileage from giving Two Heads two an unskilled GR? Dodging in one TZ with 2+ is something that must be experienced to fully appreciate it, but if dodging is easy then what?

2. Guard. This does mean that he has to stand in TZ's to get anything from it. Furthermore, I think GR's are best suited to screening or blitzing. Guard doesn't work with either of those functions. I do not regret taking the first Guard, but two might impair the team's mobility too much.

I'm with the Dauntless crowd in the Horns/Dauntless dilemma and don't think I'll be taking that. NOS is nice but it's an offensive skill and I'd rather take something more defensive oriented at this point. What about Extra Arms? It's a nice compromise on NOS and Big Hand.

[DoubleSkulls]

I just got a cyanide skaven team with 2 two heads gutter runners. Its really really good because you just walk through defences. Even a normal pair of defenders two squares apart is just 3 2+ dodges with reroll. Maybe just try it, because I was a little sceptical at first but now I've tried it I love it.

[Smeborg]

A Skaven coach in our open league came up with the following successful strategy:

2 Gutter Runners get Block, Sidestep, Shadowing (and Guard on doubles);

2 Gutter Runners get Wrestle, Dauntless, Tackle/Strip Ball (and Two Heads on doubles).

Quite a successful strategy (one of each pair has had a doubles roll). I'm not sure which GRs are the more annoying (speaking as an opponent).

[Patchwork]

My first thought was two heads. Gutterrunners are a pain to pin down as it is but with the extra ability to dodge through tackle zones they are a bigger pain on defence (better chance to dodge through tackle zones to get at a loose ball) and offence (giving you more options for dodges you might not try otherwise).

Guard and horns both have potential though. I just don't think I could resist making a gutterrunner even more mobile first though.

[Funksultan]

I think what makes this a tough decision is that GRs to me are one of the models that don't gain a ton from doubles (black orcs, and lots of others too...).

Almost all GRs fall into either ball-handlers, ball-attackers, or 1TTDers.

Ball-handler - block, side step, sure hands, (sprint, sure feet, leap)
Ball-attacker - wrestle, strip ball, leap, dauntless, (tackle, shadowing, diving tackle, side step)
1TTD - +MA of course, then sprint, sure feet, block, side step, (leap)

Doubles -could- help in some of these cases (two heads, horns, VLL, etc) but really, they aren't core to any of these positions. Don't get me wrong, I love mutations, but GRs are so damn important, and these other skills are really needed badly for them to do their job.

All things considered, I'd be tempted to take the normal skill early on. If I -had- to fall to the temptation of the double, I'd take guard. Being able to place guard where/when you need it is a huge help, and with Skaven, you have so precious few models that can actually GET guard, grab it when ya can.

[Leipziger]

Two heads all the way! Have used it loads and it is fantastic

[MeatLoafX]

I've also experimented with some VLL with an eye on leap. GRs are pretty mobile anyway, though leaping for a 3 and then dodging for a 2 with dodge is only slightly worse than leaping for a 2.

So many fun choices! Extra arms, big hand, horns... guess it all depends on the role you desire.

[mubo]

Horns, wrestle, strip ball to build a ball hunter.
Or two heads is great as well. Probably more useful in the short term.

[SunDevil]

2 HEads is awesome and seems to be the popular choice.

But I have to stick up for Horns IF you plan on using this guy to jump into cages and get the ball. More reliable than Dauntless to get a 1-die block on the ballcarrier, it goes great with the Leap/Strip Ball/Wrestle skillset that lets him surgically remove the ball from most cages.