Ulfwerener Development

[bungo_underhill]

As Ulfwereners are the only players on a norse team with general access that don't start with Block, what do people think about the idea of giving them wrestle as a first normal skill?

I'm thinking of building them as ball hunter types, so maybe juggernaut would be better, especially as it combo's with frenzy so well.

How have other people developed there Ulfs? I know block is popular but it's not exaclty in short supply in the norse team...

[Darkson]

Ulfwerners don't exist...

[GreedySmurf]

As far as I'm concerned they still do

Personally the first three skills for my Ulf's are Block, Guard & Mighty Blow. A Str 4 guarder (or two) I think is invaluable. After that I am looking at Stand Firm and Break Tackle if they get that far.

With your Ulf's and your troll with Guard, I find you can outmuscle a lot of teams, or at worst be on par with some of the bashy teams that rely on their stregnth.

[Smeborg]

I'm not a Norse coach at the moment, but by analogy with other teams, I would have thought that the following skill development path for Ulfwereners would be more than handy:

Break Tackle
Wrestle
Tackle
Pro

Great for sacking ball carriers (or receivers). With a Team Re-roll, this has a 50% chance of downing a ball carrier in a standard cage (ignoring Guard).

[Craigtw]

With S4, I would not want them to be lying on their back begging for a boot to the head (I know I for one would be loving to give it to them! Stupid Norse.....) so to that end I would not reccomend Wrestle for them.

I think Block has to be their first skill. Juggernaut does go very well with the Frenzy, but I would consider it only as a second skill.

[PubBowler]

Wrestle vs Block on the Ulfs is an internal debate I've been having for a while.
Mainly because no other Norse player is likely to take it.

But if you are giving the peice Guard/Stand Firm as well, it's got to be Block.

[Craigtw]

Wrestle vs Block on the Ulfs is an internal debate I've been having for a while.
Mainly because no other Norse player is likely to take it.

But if you are giving the peice Guard/Stand Firm as well, it's got to be Block.

I think that is the real answer there - the fact that he has Strength access makes Block the necessary choice.

[Smeborg]

I think that is the real answer there - the fact that he has Strength access makes Block the necessary choice.

Spazzfist - I don't buy that argument in isolation. I give Wrestle to players with ST access sometimes. For example, I find that Wrestle is ouststanding on Pestigors in both tournaments and leagues.

Of course, if you are building a slayer player, Block is better, but if you are building a player built to sack the opposing ball carrier, then surely Wrestle is better?

I'd love to know your further thoughts on this issue.

All the best.

[Da_Great_MC]

If I were lucky enough to get an Ulfwerner to 31 SPP's I'd give Block, Mighty Blow and Stand Firm. Block to make him reliable, Mighty Blow to cause damge and skill up faster, Stand Firm because that skill best suits his role as sideline hunter.

[Carnis]

Wrestle is an ok skill on an ulf, but in hindsight it's probably not necessary. A zerker with tackle will do just the same + work as a slayer too.

Built my ulfs one for Wrestle -> later tackle / BT / MB / GUARD
The other one for damage with MB -> later Piling on / Block / Guard.

The problem is skilling up the wrestling ulf, not the fouls nor really even the synergy with other blocky skills. A wrestling ulf is less likely to get blocked, so it's ok that he has guard eventually. I just find it exceedingly difficult to skill up a Wrestling ulf without the help of MB/PO/Block or Tackle.

I built the rest of the team with slayery skills:

Zerk: Dodge/Guard
Zerk: MB/PO/Tackle/Guard
Ulf: MB/PO/Block
Ulf: Wrestle
Troll: MB/PO
6x liner, 1 with -AV
2x liner with dirty player / -AV
1x liner with daunts/tackle

Both the throwers who skilled leader+surehands died..

I find I'm needing wrestle very rarely, whereas MB/PO gets used every turn. Still having just one is nice I suppose, but it's probably not the best #1 skill for developmental reasons. I'm probably going +MB/PO as his skill #2-3 regardless of the lack of block.

[Joemanji]

I think the key to Ulfs is ST access ... they are one of the few norse players with precious Giard access. With Frenzy they simply need Block first to avoid turnovers when sucked into second blocks at less than 2D. But I'd either go Guard next, or MB and hope to skll up quickly for Guard at 31. Break Tackle is a very tempting option, but doesn't compare to Guard IMO.

I wouldn't develop Ulfs as killers. They are the centre of the Norse team with ST4 and need to be on their feet. No Wrestle, no Piling On. Besides, Beserkers are so well suited to PO as they start with Jump Up anyway.

[Carnis]

Block certainly isn't necessary for turnover avoidance. You can almost always setup both blocks with 2d, and the chance of turnover becomes neglectable. Staying on their feet.. Never got that part, you go down for half a turn he goes down under for good -> win! And it's not like you have to use piling on every time, like you need to use frenzy.

Still, back to OPs question: Wrestle is better on paper than it is in real life.. 5x Frenzy and easy access to tackle makes it rarely needed. Better looking at guard/mb/po (even block?) type of skills. Some will suggest stand firm, but most of your opponents will realize they need to dodge out vs a standfirmer at the end of turn, if they are facing a crowdpush and that negates most of the benefit of ever having the skill.

Overall the difference between block & wrestle is a little smaller with ulfs than with frenzyless players, as you can pick a pushback on the first block and try again if you don't want to use the both down right away. On the other hand if you need to down a ballcarrier, with frenzy and wrestle your odds are around 65/81 or something against blodge..

[Joemanji]

Block certainly isn't necessary for turnover avoidance. You can almost always setup both blocks with 2d, and the chance of turnover becomes neglectable.

1/9 is "neglectable"? When you be throwing up to 100 blocks per game? Doubtful.

[Carnis]

Block certainly isn't necessary for turnover avoidance. You can almost always setup both blocks with 2d, and the chance of turnover becomes neglectable.

1/9 is "neglectable"? When you be throwing up to 100 blocks per game? Doubtful.

It's not 1/9. It's around 1/81, a little more as you could roll a double both down due to frenzy if you only get a push on the reroll. Still, a standard elven dodge is 1/36 -> over twice the risk and many people consider it no big deal at all.

Norse are a team that needs almost no rerolls, so sparing some for ulf "turnovers" is easy.. The only other rolls that need rerolls are the pickup (rarely happens without surehands), double skulls (rare), failed blitzes on a ballcarrier (rare), GFIs and desperation dodges/passes/catches.

[Darkson]

double skulls (rare),

Rare? I want your dice!