Doubles on a Rookie Bull Centaur

[JMGraham]

The roster looks like this:

Bull Centaur (regular skill)
Bull Centaur (double skill)
Chaos Dwarf, Guard
5 x Chaos Dwarf
Hobgob, Sure Hands
3 x Hobgob

2 RR, 6 FF, Apothecary

I'd appreciate any advice on skilling up the Centaurs. I'm planning to block the first BC, but am torn on the double. Thoughts I've had include:

1. Ignore the double and go block (which seems a shame)
2. Take dodge with an eye toward blodging on the next upgrade (which seems a solid choice, though it's a shame to waste part of a skill)
3. Take side-step with an eye towards block next (to help getting at ball-carriers in a cage, and let the BC run down the sidelines with relative impunity)
4. Take jump-up (though honestly, I don't plan for him to be on the ground much).

Any advice or thoughts would be appreciated. I've never played a CD team in league play before, and I'm enjoying the diverse range of options.

Thanks,
Jim

[plasmoid]

Block, Break Tackle on one.
Blodge, Break Tackle on the other. You can't really go wrong there
Strong mobile blodgers will give most teams a headache.

[Smeborg]

I would take Break Tackle on both Bulls, ignoring the doubles. If you roll a doubles for your second skill-up, that is the time to take Dodge. But a Bull with Dodge but without Break Tackle sucks, and will take a long time to reach his second skill. When I have taken Dodge as the first skill on a Bull, I have regretted it.

[Powerhausen]

I'd take the Dodge. Block, Dodge, Break Tackle is a pretty awesome Bull Centaur.

[DoubleSkulls]

Take Dodge. Get him to a 2nd skill for Break Tackle asap, and Block after that. When you get to a fourth skill then sure hands and you've a near perfect ball carrier.

[JMGraham]

Thanks for the thoughts, all. Break Tackle before Block? What's the reasoning here? Just that it's better to keep him mobile and scoring rather than hitting things?

Jim

[Master Wang]

I haven't played as CDs but have against them. I'd guess Break Tackle is to prevent your opponent tying the Bulls up with linemen and marking them out of the game. I did that recently with zombies on my necro team and it worked a treat. With the bulls tied up, the hobgoblins and and dwarfs were easier to take care of.

For the record, I'd take Dodge and go out of my way to try and score with him to get him to 16spps. The regular skill guy I'd give Break Tackle to for the reason above.

[Smeborg]

Thanks for the thoughts, all. Break Tackle before Block? What's the reasoning here? Just that it's better to keep him mobile and scoring rather than hitting things?

Jim

Yes, the BC's mobility is his greatest asset. Without Break Tackle, a BC is just a glorified Black Orc (costing 50,000 more...).

[Blammaham]

I'd take dodge because it will help eventualy with the break tackle. I usually take a long view look at things. Break takle for the short term if thats the way you want to go.S.

[mattgslater]

I like most of the above. Academic point: if this guy eventually gets to #4 without some kind of odd improvement roll, take Stand Firm or Guard over Sure Hands. Sure Hands is a Hobgoblin skill; 75% with no TRR allowed is a desperation move and never merits a precious improvement. If you're concerned about Strip Ball, a highly mobile cage-front who can't be pushed or can't be pulled off and a ST3 Sure Hands player is just as good as a ST4 Sure Hands player. He's also got a lot of other utility, as he can screen from a tackle zone; Sure Hands won't let you do that. As for pick-ups, it's best to pick up with a Hob anyway, using the BC as a downfield threat to complicate the defensive gameplan. Remember, by that time, you'll have at least one SH Hobgoblin with either Blodge or AG4 or a passing skill: they have only G access, improve like mad, and have no reason to spend doubles rolls on Guard.

I guess it depends on which kind of caging you like. If you're a backfield cager, then picking up with the hard-to-get guy is probably the best plan. In the interest of disclosure, I personally think backfield caging sucks, because any failure usually yields a defensive touchdown, and there's only very limited potential for misdirection or a sudden change of plan. If you're like me and you prefer to cage at midfield or downfield, then you don't want to be picking up with your intended carrier (or even identifying your intended carrier). Rather, you want to be ready to get the ball to one of a few outlets on turn 2, and the key is protecting those outlets without putting too many TZs on them, so the ball doesn't keep scattering if the catch fails.

[Grumbledook]

Bull Centaur Ball carriers make nuffle cry, Sure Hands is a criminal skill choice.

[DoubleSkulls]

I don't consider 75% a desperation play when either there is no pressure on the ball (as there are on many kick offs) or when you've just popped it loose

Its all about risk reward, and I've seen some very successful CD teams using BC ball carriers. Sure Hands is very handy for saving rerolls on them and meaning you've got a decent shot at getting the ball.

That said I agree that I wouldn't want one as a dedicated ball carrier against every team, but against a nasty Wood Elf team for example S4 Sure Hands can be a real life saver. Also its pretty good when the play fragments and cages (yours or his) breaks down.

[Smeborg]

Bull Centaur Ball carriers make nuffle cry, Sure Hands is a criminal skill choice.

Gotta disagree with you there, Grum. I've had a lot of success in both leagues and (especially) tournaments using BCs as ball carriers. I'm not sure why you hold so strongly to this view - have you actually tried using BCs to run the ball for any length of time?

When using a BC as your main ball carrier, you have a HG as a back-up ball carrier. You can decide who picks up the ball according to the opposition and the placement of the ball. For example, if it is in your backfield and out of range of your opponent, you get a "free" attempt to pick it up with the BC - against a slow team you might get 2 attempts for a 15/16 chance of picking it up (with Sure Hands or Re-rolls). That's not a big risk, considering how good the BC is once he's actually got the pill.

In a league of any length I tend to find that I eventually get an AG4 Hobgoblin, who of course makes a very good ball carrier (not as good as the AG4 Bull I had once, though...). In shorter leagues or tournaments, however, I suggest it's hard to beat a ball carrying BC. He can also usually score more quickly than a HG, when this is needed (for example you are 1-0 down at half time and receiving). Any stat increase on a BC (MA, ST, AG) further improves his ability as a ball carrier.

All the best.

[mattgslater]

My issue isn't even so much the 75% ( ); it's the act of moving a highly mobile ST4 player behind the line where he can't make optimum use of his power or mobility. When caging at midfield it makes more sense, but in that case it's most valuable on the front end of the cage, especially given how much Guard you can get. With a Guard player or free assister on every accessible zone (remarkably easy on offense), ST4 is pretty much the same as ST3 against a Leaping/Stunty/whatever cagebuster, with the notable-yet-often-irrelevant exception of Vampires (who usually can't afford Strip Ball anyway).

[Grumbledook]

have you actually tried using BCs to run the ball for any length of time?

No I haven't cause I've had great success using hobgoblins to do the job, Block, Sure hands Hobbo in a Guard Cage works just as well against a wardancer. Though I then have the benefit of a ST player who has a more useful skill than sure hands for hitting the opposing players and to help keep the cage moving. A hobbo is far less useful for those roles.

that doesn't mean I don't ever score with my centaurs though, if they have blitzed someone in the opposing backfield as the last action of the turn, then I'll go for the pick up with them

and if i really wanted to pick the bull up with a centaur I usually have enough rerolls to replace the sure hands reroll

its just a wasted skill (imo) when someone else on the team can do the same job at a cheaper cost and the role the centaur gives elsewhere can't be replicated by a team mate