Setting Up

[JDub]

So I'm new to BB and I've got all the rules and stuff down but one thing I'm having trouble with is setting up my team for the kick off. I'm playing an Orc team in my local league. So does anyone have any good advice on how to set up my team? Do I put the BOBs or Blitzers on the line? What do I put in my wide zones and where do I place them in the wide zone etc?

Just so you know my team is Lineorc, BOB x4 (one has Block), Blitzer x4 (one has Guard), and Thrower x2.

[mamapepe]

Ideally, 3 linemen on the Line of Scrimmage as they are the most expendable players. With your roster; keep your Throwers away from the front as they are AV8. On the LoS I would put a BoB (unskilled) either side of the lineman. Blitzers in the wide zones as they have the highest MA so if your oppo goes down one side of the pitch you give yourself the best chance of getting them across on defence.

Wide zones - don't place them up on the half way line, keep them at least a square back otherwise you give them free blocks. Be weary of wide zone positioning if oppo has frenzy.

[mattgslater]

Man, there are as many theories about Orc team setup as there are Orc teams. I generally put two BOBs and the Troll, or three BOBs, on the LOS: I don't generally field any linemen at all, or just one as a reserve.

It also depends a lot on how you like to develop your players. I invariably end up with a Side Step Blitzer, and go from a "ziggurat" to a "half-zig" defense after a few games.

Poll on bash team line setup.
viewtopic.php?f=25&t=28478

What I mean by ziggurat and half-zig
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=29010

[Gimli]

This is one of the most common defences I see in my League. Not sure what to call it, but I call it something like the "stacks of 2".

- - - - - - - x x x - - - - - - -
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
- x - - x - - - - - - - x - - x -
- x - - x - - - - - - - x - - x -

If the other team has frenzy, the players in the third row on the extreme left and right have to have SF or SS, failing which they must each be moved toward the centre one square.

The idea here is that the flanks are completely shut down - even if they blitz the first player in a stack of 2, the player right behind prevents further movement. Effectively, it forces the opponent into the middle of the pitch. They will usually knock some of the Linos down and then blitz the player at the top of one of the inside stacks. This then lets you collapse your players around the opponents, as they will have conveniently placed themselves in the middle of your formation where they can be reached by all of your players. You will place your fastest players on the extreme flanks so as to allow quick deployment. The players on one of the extreme flanks will usually be left alone which lets you put one or two players into the opponent's backfield, or at least behind his team.

I used to use this defence just vs Finesse teams, but have found it just as useful vs Bash, as it channels their attack and lets your extreme flankers get into their backfield quickly.

[sunnyside]

This is one of the most common defences I see in my League. Not sure what to call it, but I call it something like the "stacks of 2".

- - - - - - - x x x - - - - - - -
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
- x - - x - - - - - - - x - - x -
- x - - x - - - - - - - x - - x -

I think that's usually called the 3-4-4 and is possibly the most popular defense, competing with the "Ziggurat"

Code: Select all

- - - -|- - x x x - -|- - - -
- - - -|- - - - - - -|- - - -
- - x -|- x - - - x -|- x - -
- x - -|x - - - - - x|- - x -

Both with tight and spaced front rows, and with deeper varients.

Although if you have stand firm or side step players the zig usually flips so that it also shuts down the sides.

Code: Select all

- - - -|- - x x x - -|- - - -
- - - -|- - - - - - -|- - - -
- x - -|x - - - - - x|- - x -
- - x -|- x - - - x -|- x-  -

Personally as a Norse player I usually go with the zig and against bash teams I'll even scoot both sides toward the middle, leaving the extreme sides without TZs. This is largely because my players are pretty quick and enjoy seeing opponents near the sidelines.

[mattgslater]

Those are all 3-4-4 defenses, actually.

[sunnyside]

Those are all 3-4-4 defenses, actually.

Well if those are bunched together is there a good name for what Gimli is talking about? That formation, or varients where the front row is spaced out or where the rear line is all a step back is selected a significant portion of the time, and I'd consider it distinct from the zig formations.

And actually I suppose as often as I do a zig I do what I think we called an "arrowhead"

Code: Select all

- - - -|- x - x - x -|- - - -
- - - -|- - - - - - -|- - - -
- - x -|x - - x - - x|- x - -
- x - -|- - - x - - -|- - x -

though again often I'll tend to tighten it up, something more like. With varients based on my opponent.

Code: Select all

- - - -|- - x x x - -|- - - -
- - - x|x - - - - - x|x - - -
- - x -|- - - x - - -|- x - -
- - - -|- - - - - - -|- - - -
- - - -|- - - - - - -|- - - -
- - - -|- - - x - - -|- - - -

But against that's because I'm Norse and with a whole bunch of frenzy I'm hoping that my opponent goes for the sideline, and I like being a little more forward in order to exploit a deep kick of failed pick up.

[mattgslater]

In American Football, this

- x - x - x -
- x - x - x -

Is called a 3-3 stack. That wouldn't get too much use in BB, but it's not a big leap to call two players on the same column "stacked" in BB. So my first instinct would be to call that a stacked backfield. But I don't like that, as a lot of BB coaches use the term "stacked defense" to refer to placing more than 3 men on the LOS.

How about "the Tower" as it's like a Ziggurat, only not tapered?

@ Sunnyside: you know your second Arrowhead variant is only 10 men, right? Not that you don't need 10-man defenses too.

I'd hesitate to base my overall strategy on any defense that doesn't seal off either WZ, though situationally it sometimes works well against slower teams, and it might be a good way to compensate for a numerical disadvantage, especially once you have a kicker.

[sunnyside]

How about "the Tower" as it's like a Ziggurat, only not tapered?

I like tower as it carriers implication of height which is sort of what the position provides.

@ Sunnyside: you know your second Arrowhead variant is only 10 men, right? Not that you don't need 10-man defenses too.

We should all probably plan our less than 11 defenses more, but the 11th is there, just scroll down.

I'd hesitate to base my overall strategy on any defense that doesn't seal off either WZ, though situationally it sometimes works well against slower teams, and it might be a good way to compensate for a numerical disadvantage, especially once you have a kicker.

I find it works well against even medium speed teams. The essence of the matter is that if you want to advance the ball around a side you need to have a full 5 person cage assembled since there are 3-5 Frenzy players on the pitch and one of them is so deep you can't get past or mark them.

You can start down a side early. However I think it's generally agreed that in most cases committing to a side early makes things easier for the defense (especially reasonably quick and mobile ones), and that goes double for Norse.

What do you see going wrong?

[mattgslater]

I'd pick my direction against that defense and use a couple of players going around the weak-side WZ to lock out the defenders on that side and force them to rush or man-mark. Then with a blitz up the middle, the defense is effectively partitioned.

In my book, letting an offensive player in commits you to holding them into the wide zone. And frankly, a couple of fast guys can get inside on that defense. You can mark them, but marking without hedging isn't much, and your one deep guy ain't going to do it on his own. Maybe it would work against a cage, but that kind of obviates the deep safety.

[sunnyside]

I'd pick my direction against that defense and use a couple of players going around the weak-side WZ to lock out the defenders on that side and force them to rush or man-mark. Then with a blitz up the middle, the defense is effectively partitioned.

In my book, letting an offensive player in commits you to holding them into the wide zone. And frankly, a couple of fast guys can get inside on that defense. You can mark them, but marking without hedging isn't much, and your one deep guy ain't going to do it on his own. Maybe it would work against a cage, but that kind of obviates the deep safety.

You're talking about a passing play? Against passers I'm typically set up closer to a zig crowding(but not on) the LOS with a number of defenders. The idea being to get players in position to capitalize on my kick (which, all things being equal, would be closer to my line on one side, so they can't safely put off picking up the ball or have their thrower fade back.

That defense is meant to be against a cage/running type offense. The safety is there to avoid being easily marked, leaving the frenzy threat present if they've tried to turn a corner, and to force a proper cage if they're trying to advance early.

How do you imagine that working?

[cyagen]

When you are new to the game you need to understand a couple a principles:

1- Only allow your opponent to block a maximum of 4 of your guys on his opening turn (blitz + 3 LOS guys).
2- Make these blocks as hard as possible and also as annoing as possible if he does not POW your players.
3- Cover all the field. Never give a dodge/blitz free lane for your opponent to move.
4- Kepp your best players (Blitzers/Troll) off the LOS so that you can decide when and where to engage them.
5- Spread your forces equaly since you never know which side your opponent is going to attack and you are not quick enough to chase him down.
6- Be boring and conservative on your set up.
7- When you find something that works for you, stick to it. If you need to react to the offense, at least you will know where your players are.

My advice for a basic orc set up is 2 BoB with a lineman on the LOS (all 3 adjacent to each others), 1 blitzer and 1 BoB in each widezones. 2 blitzers as outside backers and 2 throwers as safety. When you master that set up you can vary it to your taste/needs.

[mattgslater]

You're talking about a passing play?

Not necessarily, but I am talking about a player with some MA, like a Ghoul, Norse Runner or or Human Blitzer. If you can just get inside of the winger and pin down the flanker and midfielder, then blitz the centerfield, you'll have the makings of a nice interior downfield/midfield cage that can only be accessed off the other side.

That defense is meant to be against a cage/running type offense.

That does make it a little more forgivable, but leaves me wondering about the deep safety. Again, MA7 can still get around the wings, and there are more than a few cage teams with some MA7. But there are some teams, like Orcs, Dwarfs and Nurgle, that don't have any of that, so in that case playing off the wings is a lot more manageable, and enhances player mobility on a slow team.

The safety is there to avoid being easily marked, leaving the frenzy threat present if they've tried to turn a corner, and to force a proper cage if they're trying to advance early.

See, this is the only part I don't get against bash. If you don't want your safeties to get blitzed, that's really a matter of building your midfielders to hold against the blitz action and starting out two squares back to prevent extra blocks off chainpushes. But having that deep guy means you have one less guy (well, one-half less guy) to rush the ball with, and it's that early rush that (in my experience) tends to defeat cage-games.

This defense actually makes a lot of sense to me with a rookie team against a basher. Once you've got some development, a few positioning skills can let you get the same broad effect just running a Ziggurat, with none of the attendant concerns about getting outflanked (outwinged?) or limiting your backfield rush.

[sunnyside]

Not necessarily, but I am talking about a player with some MA, like a Ghoul, Norse Runner or or Human Blitzer. If you can just get inside of the winger and pin down the flanker and midfielder, then blitz the centerfield, you'll have the makings of a nice interior downfield/midfield cage that can only be accessed off the other side.

See what I don't get is the numbers. Take undead (the statistically toughest team from the records of our PBEM league).

You've got three players throwing blocks on the LOS. Likely two players for the centerfield blitz (if that's opened up by the initial blocks). And than two more players marking a flank. That leaves only four players. So even if they set up strong on one side and that's where the ball wound up they don't have the numbers for a proper cage. They can't do a half cage on the sideline without a substantial chance of the deep safety frenzying someone off the pitch, and even if they had 5 they couldn't set up safely without a bunch of GFIs if they blitz the center. By safely I mean without leaving one of their cage corners in a position to be blocked, thus exposing their ball carrier to a blitz.

Long story short I've never seen someone attempt what you're talking about and I don't see it working.

You might be right that this is a matter of it being relatively low TV teams playing each other, even if the opposing coaches are experienced. I suppose if they had stand firm, sidestep, or even fend on a faster player they could use the sideline or shut down lanes of advance. And if they had enough guard they could really lock down players on the wings instead of still being vulnerable.

And once I get kick I find myself going with a more traditional wider arrangement without the deep safeties in order to try and capitalize on a deep kick.

7- When you find something that works for you, stick to it. If you need to react to the offense, at least you will know where your players are.

I'm in a PBEM league at the moment, so that's less of an issue. But I bet that's golden advice for tabletop play when the 4 minute rule is being enforced. I'll remember that when I (theoretically) get the time to play at the local game store again.

[cyagen]

7- When you find something that works for you, stick to it. If you need to react to the offense, at least you will know where your players are.

I'm in a PBEM league at the moment, so that's less of an issue. But I bet that's golden advice for tabletop play when the 4 minute rule is being enforced. I'll remember that when I (theoretically) get the time to play at the local game store again.

It also works in PBEM, you are less likely to make mistakes when you know all the strength and weaknesses of your defense and can't be taken by surprise by anything the opposition does. I personally tends to over think in PBEM.

But you are right, my advices where more tt oriented.