Offensive Tactics - Overcoming the 3-4-4 defense

[Gimli]

One of the most common defense I use (and see) is the 3-4-4, as follows

- - - - | - - x x x - - | - - - -
- - - - | - - - - - - - | - - - -
- x - - | x - - - - - x | - - x -
- x - - | x - - - - - x | - - x -

The question I have is how a Finesse team can best overcome this defense?

What I've been trying - with little success - is to knock down one of players on the end of the LOS, and then blitz the player at the top of the column that is closest to that player to create the following (*= player knocked down) -

- - - - | - - - x x - - | - - - -
- - - - | - - - * - - - | - - - -
- x - - | - - - - - - x | - - x -
- x - * | x - - - - - x | - - x -

This creates a lane into the backfield that you try to flood with your players - I set up "stacked" on that flank. Sometimes I'll have the ball carrier in that pack - in that event I'll try to tag everyone who can reach the ball carrier. Sometimes it's still in my backfield with a Thrower who has dropped back out of Blitzing range. The problem is that the defence swarms the players that have gone deep, and the drive stalls. Indeed, if I've got the ball carrier downfield it often ends up getting knocked out of his hands, and then we're looking at having to go over to defense.

My thinking is that I'm rushing things - yes, I should establish a position downfield, but keep the ball back out of blitz range with some protection - perhaps try to stretch the defence. The problem is I have to move the ball up at some point or I will get swarmed/blitzed in my backfield, and then we're looking at another defensive TD.

I'm playing Humans now, so preparing a conventional cage and trying to muscle my way upfield isn't going to work against Orcs or Dwarves - they'll easily stall me and beat up the cage.

All thoughts/suggestions gratefully received.

[mattgslater]

Depends on the D-line. If the D-line is too strong to break open (Orcs), then you have more-or-less the answer. If not (Dwarfs without Stand Firm on the line), then get the D-line moving down the weakside. Start with a Center block on the weak-side end, pushing laterally (on a push) or diagonally (on a knockdown and not following, then continue up the chain, so that the strong-side guard blocks the nose, and so on. That gives you the maximum number of bites at the apple. Make sure to leave room to run. If you're able to clear out the entire D-line, then blitz the safety behind the midfielder instead: he's better positioned to give you trouble if you're moving up the middle.

For mobile teams, the key is keeping the ball in the backfield out of blitzing range, interfering with the pass-rush off the strong-side by using a body or two, and passing on the second turn of the drive.

Getting opponents out of this defense is another option. A Frenzy/Block guy can threaten a crowd-push if you like.

[Smurf]

What is your speed?

Knock the scrimage line sideways. Look at various ways of getting it to go sideways, it must not be knocked back but it must go sideways.

You are going to have to ignore the wings. Now you have the 4 to get past. The blitz needs to be played at the back of the 2. If you have the movement you can set up a half cage on that flank and use other members of the team to prevent the other flank moving in.

The question is the ball. Depending on the team you can either have the ball in the half cage or throw in the next turn to many TD opportunities.

If ST4 is on the wings do the above, if ST 4 on the inside you'll have to risk a wing blitz and a dodge passed the 2nd. With dodgey dudes should be easy.

Alternatively there is a scatter offence. Just try and set up as many scorers as possible, and just throw the ball when you want to score.

I haven't noticed this defence, so either I break it or grindy teams set about destroying it.

[mattgslater]

I was using it about 10 years ago. It worked pretty well, but when I found myself needing Stand Firm for the wings, I went into the Ziggurat, which IMO is superior.

[DoubleSkulls]

For any fast team its pretty easy to either get a hole or just need 2+ dodges.

Oh, and why are you so bothered about breaking the line in the first turn?

[mattgslater]

If the opponent never breaks the line, you're guaranteed not to lose, and almost guaranteed lots of touchdowns and smooth team development.

Most teams have to cross scrimmage to get into scoring position. If they can't get a potential ball-handler within 2+MA squares of the end-zone, give-or-take, they can't score on the following turn. So if none of the action is on your side of the field, you know for sure that any single flub won't cough up a TD.

Yes, it's possible to score a TD without getting in on the first turn. You could cage up and march downfield, or sit back and hope to take advantage of failure or error. But the offense has a significant momentary advantage on turn 1 (essentially a free turn-and-a-half), and so many offensive strategies are dependent on using that moment to push forward: if you can take it away, then those many strategies are that much less successful.

Also remember that whatever happens in the first turn of a drive is more likely to affect the drive's development. If a player is KO/Cas'ed on the first turn of a drive, he's not going to be there on the fifth turn either. If a would-be cager gets pinned down and the cage has to go to the sideline to avoid leaving a gap, that's going to change the nature of the play and affect decisions made throughout the drive.

[Smeborg]

Gimli - the defense you depict allows AG4 players to dodge through on a single 2+ roll without moving any defenders out of the way. That seems quite easy. Have I missed something?

If you are pushing players forward in order to score in 2 turns, you will also need to:

- Spread the receivers wide (2 or more squares between them, so that your opponent cannot use each one of his players to put more than one tackle zone on your receivers).

- Mark (stand next to) as many players as possible with your linemen (so that opposing players cannot easily dodge away to Blitz or swarm your receivers).

- (Ideally) push sufficient numbers of fast players through the gap so that you can screen 1 or 2 of them (the best receivers) from being Blitzed in your opponent's turn.

Hope that helps.

[Gimli]

I was using it about 10 years ago. It worked pretty well, but when I found myself needing Stand Firm for the wings, I went into the Ziggurat, which IMO is superior.

With my Humans, I'd prefer to face a Ziggurat rather than a 3-4-4.

As I understand the Ziggurat, all I have to do is knock down or push towards the centre of the field the extreme left or right player in the Ziggurat, which then opens up a nice 2 square wide line down that extreme flank. I then put my ball carrier (or potential ball carrier) in that corrider - say his MA out of the endzone, then tag everyone in sight (0=my players; y= knocked down opponents). I also move the one player on the LOS on that flank toward the centre, and try to create a dodging corridor into the centre so as to let a fast player dodge in and tag someone from the other side.

- - - - | - - 0 - 0 - - | - - - -
- - - - | - - - x x - - | - - - -
- - 0 - | 0 - - y - - 0| - - - -
- - x - | x - - - - - x | - x - -
- 0 - x | - - - - - - - | x - x -
- - y - | 0 - - - - - - | - - - -
- - 0 - | - - - - - - - | - - - -

The opponent's 4 players on the opposite flank are out position for a turn, and everyone who can reach the extreme flank is tagged. (In my illustration my other 3 players are the 2 ball retrievers who are in the backfield, ideally on the flank chosen for the push, and the ball carrier/receiver who is somewhere in the corridor, or even past it if he has the ball.)

So barring some heroic dodging/gfi'ing etc. I will on my turn 2 be able to run the ball in without GFIs or dodges.

[Gimli]

Gimli - the defense you depict allows AG4 players to dodge through on a single 2+ roll without moving any defenders out of the way. That seems quite easy. Have I missed something?

If you are pushing players forward in order to score in 2 turns, you will also need to:

- Spread the receivers wide (2 or more squares between them, so that your opponent cannot use each one of his players to put more than one tackle zone on your receivers).

- Mark (stand next to) as many players as possible with your linemen (so that opposing players cannot easily dodge away to Blitz or swarm your receivers).

- (Ideally) push sufficient numbers of fast players through the gap so that you can screen 1 or 2 of them (the best receivers) from being Blitzed in your opponent's turn.

Hope that helps.

All excellent suggestions. Unhappily, on my Human team I have no AG4 - yet - so dodging into the back field without first clearing a lane is quite risky. Will give this tactic another go or two before giving up on it.

To be clear, if I was playing a Finesse team with Humans I'd play a slower cage up and move downfield offence. The "fast" offenses discussed here are for when I'm playing a bash team with my Humans.

[DoubleSkulls]

If the opponent never breaks the line, you're guaranteed not to lose, and almost guaranteed lots of touchdowns and smooth team development.

That's why I said first turn quite explicitly . Breaking the line is often easy across multiple turns - particularly with ball carrier safety paramount than on turn 1. If I've got a bashier team I rarely care about penetrating the line until the drive is well underway.

If you've got a faster team then scoring quickly might not be the best bet either.

So barring some heroic dodging/gfi'ing etc. I will on my turn 2 be able to run the ball in without GFIs or dodges.

Which is great for my bash team because you've given me a lot of hits, and 15 turns to score twice

[mattgslater]

@Ian: one could fail to break the line on Turn 1, and then break it in a subsequent turn. But if one succeeds in breaking the line on Turn 1, then one cannot fail to have broken the line. No? Otherwise, Turn 1 is only more important from a schematic perspective for three reasons:

1) Everything that happens in future turns plays off what happened the turn before, so Turn 1 has the most potential "ripple effect."

2) The offense has a bigger advantage on Turn 1, because they get to set up, then go. Shutting that down negates it.

3) Turn 1 is by far the easiest to game for, especially on defense, so planning it out yields bigger rewards.

None of those is overwhelming or insurmountable. But all of them are significant in a game of inches, and collectively they're quite a lot.

[mattgslater]

@ Gimli: Neither the "Tower" nor the "Zigurrat" is impenetrable. The Tower is only usable against speed, as a bash team will just use the set-up as an excuse for some crowd-surfing and a midfield cage. It does have the advantage that it shuttles action to the inside, which is good against a speedier team.

A good Zigurrat, with skilled wingers, is just as hard to get through as the Tower on the edges, but much tougher than any Tower could be up the middle. Against bash, this is a small asset: it won't get you crowd-surfed, and cages want to go up Broadway, where the Zigurrat is stronger. Ian is right in that bash teams aren't as susceptible to being held-out as speed teams are, in the sense that succeeding in holding them out is merely nice, as opposed to critical. Against speed, though, holding them to their half totally throws out the default game and forces them to plan around a longer score.

I really hate the 2-1 grind game. I mean, really really. Not because it's effective; rather, I don't think it is, statistics aside. As the kicking team, if the receiving team cages up in the backfield it's not too hard to put pressure on the ball and get a defensive score. If that happens just once, the 2-1 grind is out the window and now the grinding team has to play a different strategy.

[mattgslater]

Apologies in advance for the triple post.

Oh, and why are you so bothered about breaking the line in the first turn?

I'm writing about High Elves right now, and I'm trying to figure out how to incorporate a bit on downfield caging without going overboard. You can cage downfield without getting downfield on turn 1, but it's much, much harder. Your opponent will begin to partition the field as soon as you get locked out, and from that point on, you need at least a little luck, or you'll get locked in (it's much easier to set up your defense if you know how the offense is set up). You can play head-games with your opponent by trying to force an error, which sometimes even beats good coaches, but trickery is by nature unreliable.

With a bashy offense, it's not so important that you break the line. But it's easier, and it's nice to clear away a nice space to cage in, hopefully not too far upfield; again, downfield cages rock. But bashy teams need to think about this, as holding the line is spectacularly important on defense. If you can hem your opponent in, you know your players only have two directions to consider, and will move playside, downfield, both, or neither, dramatically decreasing your chance for error. You can also control the pace on the recovery, which allows for optimal SPP distribution, whether by turning the game over quickly and repeating, or by generating lots of Cas, or by tossing the ball around and funneling TDs to BOBs and that sort of thing.

[Setomidor]

Very interesting thread, both from the offensive perspective but also from the defensive one. mattgslater: Could you please explain the Ziggurat a bit more in detail? (Perhaps in another thread.) I'm quite good at the practical part, but reading stuff like this makes me realize I should work a bit on theory too.

About facing a well armored "Tower" defence as Humans, I'd say Frenzy is a really good option as you can threaten to crowd push people on both sides. Crowd pushes is what makes Orc coaches not sleep at night, and those team are also usually pretty bad at playing short handed. I think it is quite unlikely that you will face two opponents with Stand Firm, so just hit whatever side is possible.

Once the big baddie is off the field, you will have your blitzer on the corner of the second line defender, and most probably another assisting player on the other corner. You can use these players to shield a catcher (who is then two steps into the opposing field, exacly one short of making the end-zone unless you got Sprint/ +MA). With the slow movement of the Orc team (and other bashing teams), your opponent should only be able to move two players to counter your push (unless he rolls a lot of GFI), and with your Frenzied Blitzer lurking at the sidelines you have every opportunity to manage another push in the following turn.

[mattgslater]

mattgslater: Could you please explain the Ziggurat a bit more in detail?

This is a flanker-forward version of the Ziggurat. What makes the Zig work is that it has a pair of screens close together that support each other as "trap wedges": blitzing one player in the screen just buys you one square.