Human Line of Scrimmage Questions

[Master Wang]

In my human team, where I have two linemen with Block and another who has just reached his first skill, I am considering Wrestle for the linemen who will go on the LOS with the ogre.

a) Is it worth doing this over Block?
i) It will open spaces to run through, but I'm not elves.
ii) Combined with Fend it will make these guys very annoying, but how much more so than just with Block?.
iii) With Tackle they could threaten Block ball carriers, but they are a bit slow for this role.

b) Is that the best place for the Ogre?

Here's a link to the team:
http://www.stuntyleeg.com/index.php?sec ... obj_id=134

[Carnis]

I wouldn't develop players for LOS, until at the stage that all the players in the team already have skills. You miss a dirty player already. I'd likely take one wrestle, but not on the LOS until the whole team is sprinkled with block.. The exception is big guys with ST5/AV9, who should be developed for LOS with eyes on block/guard/stand firm..

I'm not very convinced with fend overall, but maybe they're an ok 2nd pick for a team which has linemen with no really good development options.

[Patchwork]

a) I haven't tried a lot of Wrestle on linemen yet, so I can't compare it to Block.

b) As with everything with Humans, I think it depends on who you are playing and how the game has been going. When i know the opposition can't put enough into the line of scrimmage to knock the ogre over, I'll put him up there to force them to go around. If they'll just knock the ogre flat, I'll move him a little deeper, because I'd prefer they knock a lineman then the ogre and I'll be able to (hopefully) move the ogre into the way of their drive.

[besters]

I do take wrestle as an option to block, but would tend to give it to someone I intend to use blitzing the ball carrier. They may start on the line of scrimmage, if I have 8 other players I would prefer not to be there, and of course it does give some protection, albeit at the cost of opening up a channel to the backfield.

[mattgslater]

Except against light teams, I'd pull the Ogre off the line. You're not going to prevent any 2d blocks by putting him up there.

[Carnis]

Except against light teams, I'd pull the Ogre off the line. You're not going to prevent any 2d blocks by putting him up there.

No, but you may make your oppo commit more (a guard) + take one of the three hits with AV9 & thick skull instead of AV8 and no TS. Also against teams like dwarves, they need to block with guard players & follow up to get to that 6 STR. They will get there, but it will be an investment with very little gained.

Big guy on the LOS is a standard FUMBBL start again, btw.

[Master Wang]

Well, I was considering Wrestle, but you guys are echoing my thoughts. More or less ditto the ogre placement. As for Dirty Player, hopefully the -MA guy will get it, as he will be the least missed if he gets ejected.

[mattgslater]

Yeah, everyone does it down here, too. But I'm here to tell you it's bad math.

1) 2d on ST5 is easy to get if you have so much as 1x ST4 and 1x Guard. How much Guard the defense has is only relevant in that it can occasionally force a positioning mistake. Yes, you do need to get hit by either ST4 or Blauntless or 3 assists, but on the final line-block, 3 assists is usually pretty easy. All-ST3 with no ST gimmicks is the exception to the rule, but I already said that.

2) The Ogre may be AV9 and Thick Skull, but he's not very useful if he's out of the play, and he's 2/3 tougher than a Human for 2.8x the price.

3) Sorry, those aren't lost actions your opponent is committing; it's not much of an investment. I mean, your opponent would be making 3-5 blocks no matter what you put up on the line.

4) Where else is he going to commit his Guard? You're Humans! Besides which, you don't need more than one Guard to knock down a Human line (Ogre and all) with an all-ST3 offense, even if the Ogre has Guard.

[mattgslater]

Big guy on the LOS is a standard FUMBBL start again, btw.

Yeah, everyone does it down here, too. But I'm here to tell you it's bad math, at least on Humans against non-elves. I guess you could flank him with Guard/SF Blitzers; that would be pretty tough. But it would be expensive for what it is.

1) 2d on ST5 is easy to get if you have so much as 1x Guard, though a ST4 player does make it a bit easier. How much Guard the defense has is only relevant in that it can occasionally force a positioning mistake. Yes, you do need to get hit by either ST4 or Blauntless or 3 assists, but on the final line-block, 3 assists is usually pretty easy. All-ST3 with no ST gimmicks is the exception to the rule, but I already said that.

2) The Ogre may be AV9 and Thick Skull, but he's not very useful if he's out of the play, and he's 2/3 tougher than a Human for 2.8x the price.

3) Sorry, those aren't lost actions your opponent is committing, it's not much of an investment. I mean, your opponent would be making 3-5 blocks no matter what you put up on the line.

4) Where else is he going to commit his Guard? You're Humans! Besides which, you don't need more than one Guard to knock down a Human line (Ogre and all) with an all-ST3 offense, even if the Ogre has Guard.

[Carnis]

Big guy on the LOS is a standard FUMBBL start again, btw.

Yeah, everyone does it down here, too. But I'm here to tell you it's bad math, at least on Humans against non-elves. I guess you could flank him with Guard/SF Blitzers; that would be pretty tough. But it would be expensive for what it is.

2) The Ogre may be AV9 and Thick Skull, but he's not very useful if he's out of the play, and he's 2/3 tougher than a Human for 2.8x the price.

3) Sorry, those aren't lost actions your opponent is committing, it's not much of an investment. I mean, your opponent would be making 3-5 blocks no matter what you put up on the line.

Oh I dont mind my ogre going prone.

And the maths aren't as bad as you say, standard non MB blocker will get results vs AV8 10/36*15/36 or 11.5% of the time, whereas against AV9 & thick skull it's 6/36*10/36 = 4,6% of the time. That's actually 2.5x more resilient for 2.8x the price. Add block(double)/guard/stand firm and it's 45% chance nothing happens when your ogre gets blocked, and your opponent is in an akward position - too.

Against MB the ogre is only about twice as resilient as a human lineman. Also, the next turn when the ogre stands up.. He may even do something with his guard/SF, the liners are pretty much lost for most of the beginning of the half.

We seem to be the ying & yang of this forum, disagreeing about absolutely everything ;p.

[mattgslater]

Ah, you're one of those who doesn't mind a stun. See, I fear Cas, and I'm annoyed by breaks, but a KO is like 3 stuns in my book, at least if you have a reserve. If you're down men, that's different. But with a speed team, KO isn't a huge issue. If it happens, score. If you can't you deserve it.

I don't know that we're that far apart: I'm not saying "don't let your Ogre get hit." I don't put my Ogre on the line much, because I don't think a single ST5 player is much of an advantage on the D-line, at least until you've got the SF/Guard all around to anchor him with (and even then against bash; Chaos don't care what your ST is, it's all 2d all the time). But I usually try to drive the action into him, and frequently a frustrated opponent will either blitz him 1d or do something stupid to avoid having to blitz him 1d, particularly in the second half. Big guy blitzes, blitzes against the skilly wings, come-get-me plays, it's all better than getting partitioned and massacred or watching four elves stream a receiving-cage behind your backfield! That Ogre makes a huge difference back there; the heavy teams have to cage up in front of you, 'cause they have to blitz the Ogre, while the light teams either have to try easily-isolated, low-percentage (for elves) sideline plays or go Leaping, which usually means a pretty manageable number of threats.

Also, the next turn when the ogre stands up.. He may even do something with his guard/SF, the liners are pretty much lost for most of the beginning of the half.

On this, I agree. If you can SF/Fend your whole, you can own the middle. On Humans, that's golden, and I think that's one time it's good to put the Ogre up. You'll still take 2d hits... but if you have a pair of SF/Guard Blitzers and an SF/Guard Ogre, you can shut out ST3 teams, barring Dauntless and/or a little luck. Against the heavier teams, the denial on the line is also nice, but I'd try to do it without using the Ogre. SF Blitzers, Fend Linos... those guys can pull it off too.

[Smeborg]

I like Wrestle on Human linos. Wrestle + Fend is even better. Wrestle is a "poor man's Tackle" until your Blitzers get Tackle.

Normally I will only give Block to linos on teams where I expect them to take Guard on doubles. For Humies (or Orcs), you do not need Guard on the linos, as you have plenty on other players. So I think Wrestle is better as a standard first skill.

Whether to put skilled linos on the LoS will depend on circumstance. Against slayer teams, you might as well put rookies, but against other teams it may pay to put skilled linos there.

Hope that helps.

[Master Wang]

Hmm...Smeborg is the only one arguing in favour of Wrestle so far. If you don't take Guard on lineman doubles, what do you take? Dodge?

[mattgslater]

I like having some Wrestle linemen. Generally, if they don't get Guard on doubles first, and they're not my kicker, I like to take some Wrestle. I especially like having a Wrestle/Fend noseguard and a Wrestle/Frenzy safety. If a Wrestle guy gets doubles, it's Dodge.

[Master Wang]

Thinking about it, a Wrestle guy as a safety on D and a hole maker on offense (when I get catchers) would be useful. I think I'll wait until after my catcher decisions and then decide.