Tournament team: can't decide

[Dresden]

I'm looking for a tournament team...I've had some bloodbowl experience before, but I still struggle to decide which team I want to use for tournaments.
I don't need to be top dog, but just a contender . Which of these two teams (also because I've to paint the team) do you think is best (and why)?

- Chaos dwarves
- Orcs

Which one is in your opinion the most capable? Let's assume that the tournament is 1.1K and you get skills after each match. One skill on a random player and one skill on a chosen player.
Thanks for the input guys.

[mattgslater]

How do you like to play? Chaos Dwarfs blitz better (deeper, and with less investment), but Orcs have a passing option. Both are solid, heavy-duty cage teams. Orcs are a little more vulnerable against speed, but in short formats and tournaments their superior ST is a major asset, especially for newer coaches or against other heavy teams (until peak development, when they start getting Claw/MB action, but that's not much of a tournament consideration). CDs are also more reliant on Guard, which makes them both less flexible and easier to game around in a limited format (particularly on the D-line; a CD DL with 3x Guard is easily pushed aside by a ST3 team with just 1x Guard, but that same team sees an Orc line as an immovable object clogging midfield). Chaos Dwarfs are singularly good at handling Skaven and Wood Elves, top teams in short formats. Both teams have fun gimmick options which can be taken or left: CDs have the Mino, who lets rookie CDs generate free blocks into the secondary (unless he goes WA...), while Orcs have Goblins and TTM.

[Dresden]

I'd like to mostly control the playing field: calculated and without too many risks. My major concerns are the teams i have to go up against:

- chaos dwarves: as you've put it, get easily smashed aside by superior strength (undead, chaos pact, lizardmen and orcs). And against norse i think the dwarfs can be spread around a bit too easy due to large amounts of frenzy. Even against wood elfs and skaven they can be caught relatively easy out of position. The hobgoblins make for easy targets (the mino also but less) which dwindles their number and mobility fast.

The bull centaurs are great, but they need skills (which means less guard for the dwarfs)...

- Orcs are great in my opinion, but they can be easily caught out of position if your not careful and struggle against (imo: the broken) amazon teams (which are a growing every year).

Both teams have a lot of flair and are also fun to play in a league...anyone else have some input or experience with these teams?

[solarflare]

Both of these teams are top tier teams. I don't see either of these as better than the other. My favorite team is chaos dwarfs ('cuz I love the pointy hats). I have found they rarely get pushed around the pitch. Sure, some teams will have a little more strength, but you can counter that with your guard, etc. Against orcs, the Black Orcs are strong, sure, but they do not have block. Against lizards, your tackle will drive him to distraction (position is everything... attack the skinks!)

As for orcs, their strengths are less subtle. Use the obvious strength to push people around. Also, one of the first skills I like to take is frenzy on a blitzer. It gives you an extra chance to knock down blodgers, and it also makes people position themselves to avoid crowd pushes.

Hope this helps. Both of these teams are loads of fun. Both are very very good. I recommend you play both.

[Grumbledook]

Lizards are the biggest problem for chaos dwarfs, the other teams you can cope with fairly well

if you are getting 2 skills after each game (albeit one is random) then you get the chance to get block and break tackle on centaurs, which makes them really good

otherwise not really much in it between the two, again the random skills might mean two on black orcs, guard and block being a fantastic combo on them

either roll a dice or take which team you like the minis best of

[Smeborg]

Grum - that's curious. I think I have won every tournament game I have ever played with CDs vs. Lizzies. It's as simple as Tackle vs. Dodge.

[Grumbledook]

Sounds simple, not sure what lizzie coaches you have played against.

it might be the fact I tend to shun centaurs thinking about it

but usually they can tie the dwarves up with saurus and the krox, which makes getting at the skinks tricky

combine that with not being able to break the skinks when you can get them, makes life a right mess

[mattgslater]

CDs vs. Lizards is all about matchup skills. If you can get your MB Dwarfs up on the Skinks, you'll win. If your Dwarfs have to fight Saurusauruseses all the time, you're in trouble. You could say the same thing about Orcs, though.

[Teluriel]

Maybe except for the fact that the orcs have an easier time breaking away from the sauri(uses?) due to the fact they have more strength to throw into the game. They also have goblins as a last resort...dodge in the cage for a 1 die block (but that last part is pretty desperate)...

[Grumbledook]

you don't have MB chaos dwarfs cause you take guard else you are in trouble against a lot of other teams...

that and most the times i've faced off against them its been earlier in tournaments that give one skill per game


orcs fare better cause the black orcs (and usually a troll) can hold up the saurus and you have 4 block blitzers who can get after the skinks

that said, with chaos dwarves facing orcs, i tend to fare rather well

whatever you take there are races you would rather not face

[mattgslater]

Even without MB (you're right about that, wasn't thinking format and MB is for Dwarf #4 at best), he's still 75% to knockdown the Skink. And at 1.1M you can afford the manpower to foul.

Chaos Dwarfs and Lizardmen have something in common in that the optimum build just runs a few fragile ball-handlers. But the CDs have the BC, while the Saurus and Krox can't carry the ball as an option.

[SillySod]

I'm very inclined to agree with Grum... despite the fact that I'm normally inclined to disagree with him strongly.

[Smeborg]

Grum - I can only recount my tourney experience, which has always been wins for the CDs, some of them difficult, but most of them easy.

It's true that I run the ball with BCs with Break Tackle, and I note that your and my tournament stats differ only in that my "TDs for" stats are better. I suspect this is because running the ball with BCs is a more reliable method (I am not seeking to re-open the old debate, I am just trying to understand the NAF stats).

Against Lizzies, I will typically tie up the Saurus, which includes marking them with Hobgoblins if necessary, leaving the CDs free to mark Skinks. As long as you mark enough Skinks in this way, you have the advantage. In particular, your opponent will rapidly run out of re-rolls, as he will blow them on dodges.

I also don't take Minos in tournaments, which may be an advantage in this particular match-up.

All the best.

[Teluriel]

Why not the mino? In most tournaments over here anyway, you get to pick a double on a player: claw + mighty blow makes every other player rather squishy. Is it because he's too big of a liability?

My line-up at 1.1K would be:

- Mino
- 2 BC
- 6 CD
- 3 Hobgobs
and 2 RR
aka. the full option. The only thing that bothers me is the 2 RR...

[Grumbledook]

only recent time i've had chaos dwarfs at a tourny (been using other races of late) and played lizards was at the BB

thats only 1mil and I took an early cas (though spubba had a saurus KO from throw a rock)

I also find marking with hobbos tends to get hobbos leaving the pitch, could have been a draw but my dice were pretty poor and his weren't

not sure what my overall record vs lizzies at tournies is with chaos dwarfs, but I can't think of a team I think i'd rather not face instead of lizards

don't know how much of a factor the coach is either, lizards only really seem to get taken by stronger coaches over in europe, don't think i've ever played a chump who was coaching them