Optimizing Norse for AV9 Bash

[sunnyside]

I'm starting to think Norse teams (especially in my league) should be, if possible, optimized to be the AV9 bash teams. Such as Orcs and Dwarves.

There are a number of reasons for this:
From past threads here those two are considered near the top if not the top of the tier one teams.
My experience and NAF statistics I'd seen shows that they, especially Dwarves, do very well against Norse
If you lose to elves you lose the game, if you lose to those guys you can lose the game AND your team.
Norse tend to do well against the finesse teams. This again from experience and NAF stats.

So how would you optimize a Norse team to take those guys on at higher TVs? Part of the issue is that I'm not sure if PO stays a good skill compared to other options when the odds of it getting through their armor are low, considering you have to put a man down.

Also might you consider PO on the troll as he's the only guy that can reasonably open them up? This would probably have to combo with having rolled block or having taken juggernaut in order to keep in in the action.

[Grumbledook]

i'd suggest lots of fend, saves on dodge rolls, slows them down and negates their frenzy and piling on to keep your players alive longer

[Carnis]

It's clear that PO is a lot less useful against AV9. And I agree your target needs to be AV9 teams. I'm updating my "guide" today, maybe you can chip in.. But the main points are:

1) Take fend, that will cancel out piling on, then you will still be in trouble vs MB, but not as much as PO (31% KO+ vs 58% KO+ per armor check). Consider fend also on positionals as skill #4 or so.
2) Take lineman +AV.
3) Take runner dodge & dodge on doubles for Blitzer/Werewolf.
3) Aggressive use of troll (Mb/PIling on & using it on armor & stuns, if this does not stop your claw blitz next turn) - but still avoid blitzing into foul appearance it will diminish your odds of getting to block on the first AND the followup block.
4) Wilhelm chaney inducing (so don't get your team overfat)
5) Targetting the lower AV players with MB/PO in the AV9 teams:
5a) in chaos teams - the mino + the beastmen AV8
5b) in chaos dwarf teams - the mino AV8 + the hobgoblins AV7 especially
5c) in dwarf teams - the trollslayers and the runners AV8
5d) in khemri teams - the Thro-ras AV7 no TS, then skeletons AV7+TS
5e) in lizard teams - the skinks, obviously.
5f) in nurgle teams - the rotters AV8 no regen, then the pesties AV8 +regen.
5g) in ogre teams- the snotlings, obviously.
5h) in orc teams - goblins & throwers, if any. This is a bit problematic (0-1 AV7-8), should rely on the snowtroll/wilhelm.
6) Induce boomer eziasson when you can, AV9 on the line with thicks skull = nice!
7) FOUL, that +7/+1 armor check will always pass (sometimes you will need DP on double-1's though) AV9, too!
Induce bribes + use them for fouls.

Finally, just accept you are not built to last - bring reserves.

[voyagers_uk]

make an agressive feint and then switch play and use your superior MA against Dwarves/Chaos Dwarves

Carnis has the right people identified to hit hard and fast, I think you need to gain at least a man advantage and do it early.

Use the Snow Troll as a Pivot point to really ram home your fist.

[mattgslater]

Also, some teams have just a few guys who can handle the ball (like Dwarfs with Runners and Blitzers, or Undead with Ghouls and Wights). Get rid of a couple of those guys and score just one TD and you almost certainly won't lose.

[Smeborg]

It's still easier to gain a numbers advantage in the traditional Norse way, though, isn't it (by crowdsurfing)? Ought not skills that help this (e.g. Juggernaut) be at a premium?

[mattgslater]

Sure, but C-grade blocking skills are still vanity picks. They're just recommended vanity picks with this team, as opposed to late one-off selections.

[sunnyside]

It's still easier to gain a numbers advantage in the traditional Norse way, though, isn't it (by crowdsurfing)? Ought not skills that help this (e.g. Juggernaut) be at a premium?

Due to stand firm being so annoying for crowd surfing I'd be inclined to say yes. Especially on the troll if you can't seem to roll doubles on them (that would be me).

Good opponents will make it very hard to get crowd surfs, but I find frenzy still has value in causing them to make sub optimal choices, in getting chain blocks, and just straight up in getting the other guy down.

Is Wilhelm really worth keeping the team lean for? I can appreciate high speed frenzy S4 claw, and with catch he might even be able to pull off a surprise run dispite loner. But he's pricey.

Also I was considering trying to guardspam the team. Obviously the other teams can still bring more, and I'll probably run into that in my perpetual league, but I'm suspicious they wouldn't get enough within a 15 game league environment. The idea being the guard could keep them down and off my guys.

[Ullis]

I'm intrigued by the difference between straight out damage skills and Guard. There's obviously an important choice there that will affect both SPP development of individual players and how the team functions.

I'm going with the assumption that for linos Guard on doubles is a no brainer. But what about the berserkers, Ulfwereners and the snow troll? How should they be developed with Guard in mind? Snow Troll should get Mighty Blow first unless it rolls doubles. But what about the berserkers and ulfwereners? I'm stumped here. The ulfwereners seem better candidates for early Guard. The reason here is that berserkers' Block and JU just scream for MB followed by PO. But giving an ulfwerener Guard can really stunt its development.

I'm asking because my Norse team (after 3 games) has a MB berserker and after last game my other ulfwerener got his second skill (the first was Block). What do I give the ulfwerener? MB seems nice as I obviously block with it a lot but then there'd be no one with Guard and two MB's on the team is far from overkill. Other skills are Dodge on the only runner and DP on a lino. I guess giving Guard for the other berserker would be ok. He's at 2 spp's but he'll get the first skill soon if I concentrate on it. The other ulfwerener is at 4 spp's but an ulfwerener with Guard as the first skill feels like a waste.

[sunnyside]

On troll development. If one was specifically targeting Orc/Dwarf and you aren't getting doubles, what progression of skills would you suggest?

What would you put on the LOS once you've got at least all the non-thrower positionals, a lineman with kick, and a couple with guard? I figure you either have to bench some positionals or guard linemen or you'd be best putting runners on the LOS. You wouldn't put your troll there would you?

I'm going with the assumption that for linos Guard on doubles is a no brainer. But what about the berserkers, Ulfwereners and the snow troll? How should they be developed with Guard in mind? Snow Troll should get Mighty Blow first unless it rolls doubles. But what about the berserkers and ulfwereners? I'm stumped here. The ulfwereners seem better candidates for early Guard. The reason here is that berserkers' Block and JU just scream for MB followed by PO. But giving an ulfwerener Guard can really stunt its development.
e.

I'm quite a fan of guard on the Ulfs. An opponent can often get the ball rolling for a series of blocks by throwing a 1D block at the zerker, especially if they don't have SF/SS yet.

The S4 on the Ulf makes the situation trickier. Also in a ruck the Ulf can often get a 2D against somebody and push their way to a spot to slather assists all over the place.

[mattgslater]

On troll development. If one was specifically targeting Orc/Dwarf and you aren't getting doubles, what progression of skills would you suggest?

Mighty Blow, then Guard or Stand Firm, with Break Tackle as an option to keep you from getting 2d'ed. As S-only access players with no access to Grab, there are pretty much four B-or-better skills available. I guess Juggernaut is an ok #3 if you take Stand Firm at #2.

Guard or Stand Firm? Hard to say. Guard is better on the guys around him, but Norse have kind of a pickle going on, where the only guys with S access are also the Frenzy guys, but the team really wants some Guard and, at peak development, Grab. So even though Stand Firm is a more optimal Snow Troll skill, you're probably better off taking Guard at #2 after Mighty Blow, then in a perpetual format, Stand Firm at #3 and Break Tackle at #4. Maybe the other way around; the Break Tackle Big Guy trick works well against Orc cages, with all their unskilled ST4. But by the time you've got your Snow Troll to 3 skills, that unskilled ST4 is mostly a thing of the past... and Stand Firm is awesome forever, against everybody.

I'd never consider Piling On on a 140k Wild Animal; on average, PO/WA is basically a stun on your own (standing) guy for a re-roll on the other guy, or a prone on your own guy and a burned blitz (which is usually a big deal). Because he's AG1 (and MA3+*), Jump Up isn't any good on a 2nd double, so I wouldn't even consider it if I doubled twice by 31.

* Even then, it's not on my menu, considering Blodge and Pro.

[Digger Goreman]

While it was Orcs vs Dwarves, in a game I was watching, the Dwarves were defeated by a liberal spamming of Wrestle.... Hard to catch up when most of your movement is spent getting up... and it mitigates damage....

[Carnis]

Is Wilhelm really worth keeping the team lean for? I can appreciate high speed frenzy S4 claw, and with catch he might even be able to pull off a surprise run dispite loner. But he's pricey.

Also I was considering trying to guardspam the team.

Wilhelm is not really that expensive:
8338 Frenzy, Claws, Regen base 120k
+50k STR
+20k Catch
+20k Wrestle
=210k
+30k "Good will" and loner ofc.

Guardspam is good. But I doubt you can outguard an orc who comes with a natural +2 STR advantage too.

I really advocate that MB/PIon troll, but I realize it's not for everyone. It's a high risk high reward play (you go prone 69% of the time, your opponent gets removed 58% of the time, a little less vs thick skull). But claw/MB/PIon really gives you a shot at outmanning your opponent. Being "semi-stunned" for it is no biggie for the reward that's on offer (For the record: I wouldnt use piling on troll against AV7-8 teams regularily, either).

No doubles assumed: MB/Piling on/Guard/Juggernaut (if still no block), if block then SF next..

[prisma]

Start with both ulfs and both runners (dauntless). You need every possibility to bring down the high st opponents. In the beginning, Runners are more important against bashers than berserkers.

[mattgslater]

Good point about Runners. I don't think you can start them all, though. Here's the package, then.
8x Lineman
2x Ulf
1x Apothecary
3x TRR
Choose one from the following:
A) Runner + Lineman #9 + 10k
B) Runner + TRR #4
C) Snow Troll + 10k

IME, 3x TRR is enough, just barely, and 11 men is not enough, even with an Apothecary, unless you're dishing out a lot of hurt, on which you cannot rely. So I'd go for either A or C. B is probably more powerful, but is incredibly risky, because one extra body saves more actions than TRR#4 does. The Snow Troll is also risky, but he gives you as good a shot as you're going to get at what you really need to do, so you can squint and pretend it's worthwhile. Plus, he's expensive, and starting with him smoothes your progression out. Still, A is the safe choice, 'cause that first benchwarmer will see a lot of action.